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Post by Miisa on Aug 4, 2014 10:50:18 GMT
Here is a thread for discussing the first book of the His Dark Materials series
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Post by Miisa on Aug 4, 2014 10:56:38 GMT
I found the daemons a fun thing the first time I read the books, now that I still sort of mildly remember the later books, I am more focused on the interesting aspect of there being a parallel world where people's souls (that's what I see them as?) being visible for all to see and what that would mean for human society and interaction and where it would take us differently from where we are now.
The other is the idea that being pulled apart from your daemon/soul would lead to intense feelings of sorrow and loss, is a reflection on the idea that maybe we "lose" our souls a bit when we are depressed?
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Post by raspberrybullets on Aug 4, 2014 11:54:18 GMT
I see deamons as a part of the body/human that is somehow expressed physically and seems to be a good indicator of a humans emotions/feelings. I'm not sure how one generally defines a soul, but clearly Lyra still is herself and has her thoughts and emotions apart from Pantalaimon. I think usually a soul would be thought of as the consciousness/brains/emotions of a person? I'm not sure what is missing from Lyra without Pantalaimon, though apparently something vital is because the children who are cut from their deamons become sort of lifeless.
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Post by juju on Aug 4, 2014 12:51:26 GMT
I think the problem I had with it is that they are animals - that seemed a bit twee at first. On second reading of the books (10 years later) I accept it a lot more. I do have a question about daemons and being separated, but I'd need to refer to the last book so I'll save it.
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Post by JoeP on Aug 4, 2014 18:59:16 GMT
One of the things I love about the series is how PP plays with ideas (like the soul) in more complex ways than just "exists / doesn't exist".
And I was about to say something about daemons aren't souls, but again that rests on stuff in later books so isn't for this thread. It's just worth noting that - as we see several times in book 1 - that when people die, their daemons vanish.
I like the idea and the treatment of it - no problems with it as such. The thing that I don't like, and I think it's a flaw with his whole dark matter & subverting of organised religion, is that it still assumes that humans are distinct from all other animals.
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Post by juju on Aug 4, 2014 20:20:11 GMT
Oh, but what about the Mul...?
Sorry, spoilers. We need more threads.
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Post by JoeP on Aug 4, 2014 21:14:08 GMT
OK, let me be more specific - in Lyra's world, only humans have daemons (assuming witches are a kind of human). Armoured bears don't, even though they are intelligent. (Unless the armour really does count as their equivalent of daemons. But do their cubs get armour? And does it change shape all the time until they reach puberty?) That's another thing, the thing about daemons taking on a fixed form when you hit puberty - specifically, not any other definition of maturity - seems not to have any good reason. Though it is put to good use as a story element.
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Post by JoeP on Aug 4, 2014 21:15:36 GMT
Bears' armour can't talk back, that's a pretty significant difference. And if the Mul... have their wh...s as a kind of daemon, same applies.
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Post by juju on Aug 4, 2014 21:24:18 GMT
I assumed the Mul...'s daemons were internal, like people from our world.
I think the whole Dust / puberty thing makes sense and yet doesn't... like it all rests on sexual maturity somehow. I suppose that's why the church in Lyra's world equates it with original sin, but if it is consciousness then surely children would have it too?
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Post by Kye on Aug 5, 2014 2:26:40 GMT
I never really understood how sex and original sin got connected. Really I don't...
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Post by JoeP on Aug 5, 2014 12:56:32 GMT
In the HDM books or in the real world?
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Post by Moose on Aug 6, 2014 0:57:22 GMT
Okay I skimmed this thread .. too many spoilers :(can we have a thread that specifically concentrated ONLY on book one?
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Post by juju on Aug 6, 2014 11:44:46 GMT
All that stuff IS in book one
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Post by Miisa on Aug 6, 2014 13:01:09 GMT
Yes, apart from the daemons not being souls (from later books I can't remember? Or am I just not imaginative enough?), the dust stuff is at the end of book 1.
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Post by Moose on Aug 6, 2014 17:36:38 GMT
the deamon thing was book two tho. I had already guessed it but still
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Post by Miisa on Aug 6, 2014 18:10:56 GMT
What? I just started book 2. Hmm, must catch up.
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Post by raspberrybullets on Aug 7, 2014 9:54:32 GMT
I never fully got the how it all connects between deamons and dust and all. I do think this is probably a better discussion for book two or three thread though cos then we have all the elements.
Maybe deamons are just sort of that bit of you that you talk to. Your other self? Seems any conscious creature has something deamony either inside or as a physical manifestation. I don't really see a problem with it not applying to animals since animals are different from people.
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Post by JoeP on Aug 7, 2014 16:14:41 GMT
Are they? What is that difference?
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Post by Moose on Aug 7, 2014 23:01:33 GMT
STOP WITH THE SPOILERS!
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Post by juju on Aug 7, 2014 23:18:23 GMT
They're not spoilers! Daemons are in Book 1. This is a discussion about what they might be - you can join in!
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Post by Moose on Aug 7, 2014 23:20:20 GMT
"I do think this is probably a better discussion for book two or three thread though cos then we have all the elements."
WHAT elements? I do not even know what is being referred to there but I now know something that I did not want to know before I got to it, ie that there are 'elements'
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Post by raspberrybullets on Aug 8, 2014 9:15:07 GMT
Are they? What is that difference? Well we have lots of traits that aren't seen in any other animal. Maybe one aspect but not all combined. Like speech and self awareness and tool use.
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Post by raspberrybullets on Aug 8, 2014 9:22:55 GMT
On another note, I really like how they parallel world reflects our own so well. It was fun to read the Gyptians with their very Dutch/Gypsy mushing.
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Post by Moose on Aug 13, 2014 20:56:40 GMT
Okay some thoughts. I actually was pretty hesitant about the book at first. There was something about it that grated on me.. the fact that the world, whilst familiar in many ways, did not seem quite 'right.' This was later explained in book two (yes I know that I am giving spoilers there but I think I am the only person here who has not read the entire trilogy). I found Lyra slightly irritating and frankly still do but although I was initially sceptical about the idea of daemon I did like pan-thingy.
There were a lot of characters introduced very quickly and I found this difficult - as I found the names difficult. Some were more likeable and memorable than others. Mrs Coulter never appeared as anything more than a superficial character and I was unimpressed by her, at first and still later on.
I did like the bear, thingy thingy (the nice one). Lyra seemed in some way to have romantic feelings for him though which seemed rather odd to me.
Lord Asriel is still a mystery... started out bad, then was perceived to be good, then turned bad again. I do not know how he will end up
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Post by juju on Aug 13, 2014 21:53:08 GMT
I also find Lyra irritating. But you've met Will now, yes?
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Post by JoeP on Aug 14, 2014 12:01:52 GMT
Iorek Byrnison. I think Lyra's love for him is pretty much on a par with the obsession any 11 year old girl might have with a teddy bear that turned out to be intelligent and awesome.
Or with Daniel Radcliffe ... or with Benedict Cumberbatch ...
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Post by juju on Aug 14, 2014 14:55:10 GMT
Yeah, and I think she's probably searching for a father figure. What better than a huge, fierce, furry one?
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Post by juju on Aug 19, 2014 19:13:05 GMT
So Jo, did you start Amber Spyglass yet?
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Post by Moose on Aug 19, 2014 21:24:24 GMT
I read a cpl pages but I've got a few other books on the go too I have to be in te mood for it
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Post by juju on Aug 19, 2014 22:30:20 GMT
Ooh, we need JoeP to bully you some more!
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