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Post by ProdigalAlan on Jun 26, 2016 13:02:01 GMT
When British Midland went under I was offered a contract in Frankfurt working for Lufthansa. Had I been 20 years younger I would have taken it in a heartbeat.
If the same deal was on the table today and I was 20 years younger I'd snap it up. If that meant taking German citizenship - so be it.
There is no status quo. I clearly remember what it was like in this country before we joined the common market and it was damn grim. We were called the sick man of Europe and rightly so.
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Post by JoeP on Jun 26, 2016 13:19:12 GMT
Nice signature, Juju
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Post by spaceflower on Jun 26, 2016 13:19:55 GMT
I'm a bit confused. Does not British laws about safety apply to all working in Britain including drivers?
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Post by JoeP on Jun 26, 2016 13:21:45 GMT
Alan, by status quo I mean that of the past 20 years or so. My bet is that - only after several years of uncertainty and upheaval - England and Wales will concede to free movement of labour with the EU.
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Post by ProdigalAlan on Jun 26, 2016 13:40:28 GMT
I'm a bit confused. Does not British laws about safety apply to all working in Britain including drivers? Theoretically yes. However the UK police are lucky if they detect 10% of non UK offenders. If they do catch someone they almost always fail to produce correct documentation. All the police can do is give them a fixed penalty notice. This is a fine that has to be paid by the end of four weeks. By this time the drivers are safely back in Eastern Europe and ignore the fine as their police forces do nothing about enforcing it. As many ( actually nearly all ) of these vehicles are not equipped with tachometers it is impossible to enforce the maximum hours driving rules. They don't even have to take the same stringent driving tests for heavy goods vehicles, and they are often driving in excess of 10 hours at a time, on the other side of the road with the steering wheel on the opposite side.
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Post by spaceflower on Jun 26, 2016 13:50:31 GMT
Will these drivers and their vecihles now be stopped? After the negotations are ready, in two years.
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Post by ProdigalAlan on Jun 26, 2016 14:04:17 GMT
If ( big fat IF ) they arrive in the UK probably not, we don't have the police resources to stop them all - only a very small minority. But as we no longer have free trade agreements it is quite possible that we will see less. With the decline in the pound and import tariffs everything from the EU is going to cost more ( OMG that means my Guinness is going to cost more )
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Post by ProdigalAlan on Jun 26, 2016 14:06:43 GMT
This is even worse than when ABBA split up !
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Post by Moose on Jun 26, 2016 18:22:49 GMT
My brother - a banker (yes yes boo hiss) and sister (auditor) are both tearing their hair out. My other sister, on the other hand, voted 'out' for the usual stereotyped views. My brother is now planning to leave the country with his family .. possibly go Down Under. He is lucky enough that he'd be welcomed anywhere but - not everyone has that option.
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Post by ProdigalAlan on Jun 26, 2016 18:50:00 GMT
I can't say I blame him.
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Post by Moose on Jun 26, 2016 19:36:49 GMT
No. My sister is worried about her job too.
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Post by ProdigalAlan on Jun 26, 2016 19:43:25 GMT
But in any given set of events like this there are going to be winners and losers ( winner = Boris loser = Corbyn ).
I get terribly angry at people who are not flexible about their employment. Just because you start out as a Chef in Nottingham does not give you the right to expect to be a chef in Nottingham until you retire. If one door closes you have to diversify.
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Post by Moose on Jun 26, 2016 20:07:09 GMT
My sister actually gave up a very well paid job to work - in a paid capacity - for the Red Cross for a while. Later she went back to what she had been doing. She is not afraid of diversifying but she is afraid of being left jobless with a very large amount of rent to pay
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Post by JoeP on Jun 26, 2016 22:09:40 GMT
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Post by ProdigalAlan on Jun 27, 2016 9:07:52 GMT
Hmmmmm . . . . Woke up this morning and there seems to be a growing opinion in favour of a second referendum.
That's not what I wanted.
Boris is back-pedalling. The reality of a breakup of the U.K. With an independent Scotland and the loss of Northern Ireland is finally hitting home ( TBH I did see that one coming ).
I think a second referendum could be on the cards by the end of the week.
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Post by juju on Jun 27, 2016 9:54:14 GMT
I was never convinced of Boris being anti EU anyway - he was pro only a few months ago. He really didn't think they'd win, it was just a ploy to get him to number 10, and the deeply unpopular Gove and IDS jumped on the bandwagon.
Now no one wants to touch Article 50 with a bargepole and Boris is trying to convince us all it'll be business as usual. Can't think the rest of the EU will let us get away with that.
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Post by JoeP on Jun 27, 2016 10:35:06 GMT
IDS has been fairly consistently anti-Europe, hasn't he? As well as anti fairness and anti decency and anti humanity. But Jeremy Corbyn has disappointed me. You're a strong supporter, Julie, what do you think of his performance? He doesn't seem to be really pro-EU. He was certainly not very visible and strong in campaigning for Remain, unless I missed it all. And people have doubts: Jeremy Corbyn EU speech and prior Eurosceptic views - Business InsiderIt worries me that every single party leader is more concerned with personal power than with personal conviction or what is actually right for the country (Bojo and Cameron and Faraj are just more blatant about it). Including Nicola Sturgeon. Possibly excluding the Greens - but I don't remember hearing anything from the Greens during this referendum campaign and aftermath?
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Post by JoeP on Jun 27, 2016 12:13:39 GMT
A tweet ...
Laura SR @laurasrobinson
I wish Jeremy Corbyn had fought half as hard to stay in the EU as he is fighting to preserve his own job 9:36 AM - 27 Jun 2016
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Post by juju on Jun 27, 2016 16:26:38 GMT
Hilary Benn was in charge of Labour's Remain campaign, apparently. Corbyn did campaign all across the country but the media largely ignored that. They have now given far more attention to the plot to oust him because they see it as more exciting and newsworthy. The media is motivated by outrage - hence the disproportionate amount of coverage given to figures like Farage and Trump and the relatively little attention given to people like Bernie Sanders (until his campaign just got too big to ignore). Having said that, I'm very critical of the Remain campaign on all sides. I don't think it spelled things out well enough, hence the amount of people now claiming they didn't realise what would happen. Furthermore, the Leave campaign was peddling lies and simply telling people what they wanted to hear, especially on issues like immigration. People were miss-sold. But then I've always thought that 'Leave' was nebulous and ill defined, as it's proving to be - people defined it whichever way they wanted it. which calls into question the validity of the vote, in some respects - how can you expect people to choose between two things, one of which has no clear definition? ETA: Because I get the Greens in my Facebook newsfeed there was stuff everyday about their campaign - they were very vocal. Again, the media ignored it.
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Post by spaceflower on Jun 27, 2016 16:43:29 GMT
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Post by Moose on Jun 27, 2016 16:53:34 GMT
I already looked into the Irish citizenship lol. I did not sign the second referendum petition though, although I considered it. But - it just doesn't seem right to say 'well I don't like the result so I want us to keep voting till we get the one I want.' I would support a referendum on the terms of exit, but not another 'shall we stay or shall we go' one.
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Post by juju on Jun 27, 2016 16:59:17 GMT
I signed it, just to see what would happen to it - although clearly it has no authority. I was highly amused to read it was started by a Brexit supporter several weeks ago though, lol.
I do think far more needs to be discussed before any decisions are made, simply because of the fact that 'Leave' was, and is, so badly defined.
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Post by ceptimus on Jun 27, 2016 20:52:20 GMT
You can't really say that the referendum question was badly defined - it was crystal clear: Do you want to remain in the EU or leave it?
You can argue that the consequences of either choice were ill defined. Remain was better defined as it just meant the status quo, but future events could have changed that anyway (e.g. Euro-zone collapse). What happens after a Leave vote was ill defined - the remain side repeatedly told everyone that it would be awful: problem is that they did in such a poor way that a majority of voters didn't believe them.
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Post by juju on Jun 27, 2016 22:41:43 GMT
You can't really say that the referendum question was badly defined - it was crystal clear: Do you want to remain in the EU or leave it? But 'Leave' itself was *not* defined, and still isn't. There's been talk of leaving a bit (the Norway option), leaving completely, and many variations in between. Or not leaving at all. People voted for the kind of 'Leave' they hoped for, but that varied from person to person. Boris is now rowing back and suggesting that leave doesn't really mean leave anyway. So yeah, I do think it was anything but 'crystal clear' what people were voting for.
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Post by JoeP on Jun 28, 2016 14:36:19 GMT
You can't really say that the referendum question was badly defined - it was crystal clear: Do you want to remain in the EU or leave it? The referendum question was badly defined! There - I said it! It's like voting in a general election for a party with no manifesto, just "we're not the other side".
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Post by kingedmund on Jun 28, 2016 16:48:52 GMT
This sounds like a mess! How on earth? All we hear over her on the news is markets and racism in UK!
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Post by JoeP on Jun 28, 2016 17:02:11 GMT
There are a lot of xenophobes in the UK (racists, and people violently biased even against Polish people who are not exactly a different race).
There are a lot of them and they don't speak to pollsters - either hide their views because they're not politically correct, or simply don't get reached because they are not on the internet and not in shopping centres and don't answer the phone. (Bear in mind they are xenophobic because they and their communities have been deprived for a long time, and they've been been fed hatred by Rupert Murdoch's newspapers. And they vote against their own best interests because they genuinely believe it, and think all the "experts" telling them otherwise are just the well-off establishment who've been depriving them.) So it comes as a shock when the actual election happens.
Donald Trump could very easily be elected in the US.
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Post by juju on Jun 28, 2016 18:49:55 GMT
What really, truly worries me is what these people will do when they realise they've been lied to, and that what they thought Brexit meant was not what it *really* meant. When they realise it won't do anything much to prevent immigration, that the 'foreigners' are not going to be made to 'go home' and that the economic repercussions will have a detrimental affect on their lives, there could be some serious trouble. I hope I'm wrong.
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Post by JoeP on Jun 28, 2016 20:30:30 GMT
Unfortunately what I'm seeing on other forums, well one, that I rarely visit and now I remember why, is more arguing and blindness. There is so much hatred for the EU - gleefully and often stated - they still just see this as a major victory and are convinced everything will be much better on Monday, sorry, soon, sorry, in 10 years. And this is match by new hatred from the remainers.
Despite vehemently denying xenophobia, it really is about reducing immigration, so it will all come to a head again when whichever government negotiates EEA membership, with single market access and no limit on migration - then there will be more protests. Serious trouble, as you say. But not because they were "lied to", just because the government again didn't represent their wishes.
What really, truly worries me is that the divisions between inners and outers have been shown to be vast and unbridgeable. I'd say Britain is ruined, but it seems to be the same across Europe and the US. It would take a massive recession and/or a war to make people actually re-examine their beliefs - and I actually don't think either are very likely. What is likely is that this divided Britain carries on and on and it will be a bit unpleasant.
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Post by Moose on Jun 28, 2016 20:59:24 GMT
Yes. Despite the fact that, to avoid further ruffling feathers, I shared a cpl memes about being friendly no matter what we voted for deep down I believe and know that I can't find any common ground with most outers (NOT all but the ones who did vote for xenophobic reasons, and there were a lot of them). That is, as you say, a gap that it is almost impossible to bridge - as between that of Trump supporters and decent human beings in the US. I have one or two friends who I know are going to vote Trump and the best I can do is simply not to talk about the subject.
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