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Post by Moose on Feb 22, 2019 4:06:44 GMT
a llama for Mari!
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Post by whollygoats on Feb 22, 2019 6:29:06 GMT
Well, thanks, Mari. But my response was rather predicated upon this being yet another instance of what I consider exceedingly naive commentary from that particular source.
It is an expression of my eroding confidence in my being able to carry on a conversation, much less a civil one, with an interlocutor who is thick as a brick. So, yes, there is a certain sense of my not caring what the response might be because my continuing interactions are coloured with these kinds of infuriating inanities. The breakdown of my civility is probably an indicator that I have given up. Fuck it. There comes a time when there is no point in even trying to engage. I think we are hoving ever so close....
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Post by Moose on Feb 22, 2019 6:49:40 GMT
Okay seriously .. we're all nice people here. Can we try to get along?
That is not anything administrative - I do not .. administer. I am not going to stop anyone saying what they want to say here because that's not my thing. But I will say if I think someone is being rude without reason. You can be rude to me too - that's okay(ish) and no-one will moderate that.But - do you really want to?
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Post by Mari on Feb 22, 2019 8:05:54 GMT
Well, thanks, Mari. But my response was rather predicated upon this being yet another instance of what I consider exceedingly naive commentary from that particular source. It is an expression of my eroding confidence in my being able to carry on a conversation, much less a civil one, with an interlocutor who is thick as a brick. So, yes, there is a certain sense of my not caring what the response might be because my continuing interactions are coloured with these kinds of infuriating inanities. The breakdown of my civility is probably an indicator that I have given up. Fuck it. There comes a time when there is no point in even trying to engage. I think we are hoving ever so close.... Fair enough. Thanks for trying to explain your thought processes to me. To be honest I actually understand what you're trying to convey better in these last few posts you wrote to me, than in the posts you wrote to tangent. I don't have a lot of experience with unions, except for my own. We're supposed to go on strike in 2 weeks, but though I agree with the idea that the government is taking too much money away from education while giving back too many responsibilities, the official goal of the strike is so vague and open to different interpretations that I don't feel it would be useful. It's probably also why many schools decided not to participate. It's a shame, because you stand a lot stronger if your goal is clear and you're all united. I think our unions may be too politified if you understand what I mean by that word?
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Post by Mari on Feb 22, 2019 8:06:50 GMT
I prefer alpacas...
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Post by Alvamiga on Feb 23, 2019 14:57:40 GMT
and (b) it's Europe related. Yes ... but rule 1 of Europeforum is not to stay on topic. So discussing European topics is rare! I always assumed the Europe in Europeforum was akin to The Euro in Eurovision!
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Post by whollygoats on Mar 14, 2019 1:38:33 GMT
So...WTF?
How many times has Parliament voted down the government's Brexit proposal?
How does this government continue to stand? Am I correct in surmising that the whole bloc of the Ulstermen is sticking it to May et al?
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Post by Moose on Mar 14, 2019 4:53:07 GMT
I have genuinely lost any sort of track of what is going on. Seems every time May loses something she just has ANOTHER vote but I've lost all clue of what they are voting on
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Post by tangent on Mar 14, 2019 11:33:39 GMT
Theresa May is clinging on as party leader because (a) she won a vote of no confidence within her party in December and Conservative rules forbid another leadership challenge within 12 months, and (b) no one wants her job. It would appear no one in the Conservative Party is urging her to resign. But the Unionists would rather have her as leader than Jeremy Corbyn and a Labour government and so they rally round her when there is a hint of a parliamentary-wide no confidence vote.
'Meaningful Vote' is actually a zombie character in a horror movie, which is why it keeps on getting resurrected. At least, BBC Newsnight thinks so.
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Post by Alvamiga on Mar 15, 2019 0:27:28 GMT
Who'd want to play pass the parcel when you can hear the parcel ticking?
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Post by Moose on Mar 15, 2019 6:47:47 GMT
oooh me! It might be a clock ..
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Post by whollygoats on Apr 8, 2019 18:33:08 GMT
So....Here it is the 8th of April.
The clock has long past its intended countdown. Three votes were held in Parliament, yet nothing came of them. It's now past the date when No Brexit was supposed to have come in to play, yet I still hear whining about extensions. Will the Europeans actually put up with that bullshit? Or, am I not seeing something?
Is the UK now not part of the European community? Have you successfully self-exiled?
"Shaka, when the walls fell."
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Post by JoeP on Apr 8, 2019 20:28:05 GMT
The current cut-off date is 12 April, not today.
But, like the "meaningful votes", it's all meaningless. No one knows what will happen, or when it will happen, or what the situation will be after anything happens. No one knows what Parliament wants, still less what the British public wants (except "Brexit"). The only thing that unites us is we like saying NO. No to the EU, and no to any of the other options.
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Post by tangent on Apr 8, 2019 20:34:03 GMT
Will the Europeans actually put up with that bullshit [whining about extensions]? Germany will, France won't. Have you successfully self-exiled? No, many Labour MPs are talking about voting for No Brexit to avoid exiting without a deal but the Labour Party is split just like the Conservatives. No one (I mean no one) has a clue.
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Post by whollygoats on Apr 8, 2019 20:41:34 GMT
Okay, okay....So I'm not as out of touch as I thought. As a matter of interest, it sounds as though I'm as confused as the natives.
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Post by Moose on Apr 8, 2019 23:50:48 GMT
What Steve said. I think most people have given up
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Post by spaceflower on Apr 9, 2019 0:12:09 GMT
The British members of parliament seem to me like defiant three-year olds, shouting "No, no, no" to every proposal. EU seems to have a never-ending patience with UK.
I assume that the British will have the right to vote in the EU elections on 23 May, even though they will have nothing to do with EU.
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Post by Alvamiga on Apr 9, 2019 0:18:14 GMT
It's like looking at the doomsday clock and realising it says 00:05!
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Post by whollygoats on Apr 9, 2019 5:32:13 GMT
The British members of parliament seem to me like defiant three-year olds, shouting "No, no, no" to every proposal. EU seems to have a never-ending patience with UK. Actually, my understanding is that May presented the same proposal three times. There were no changes. That is to what the Speaker of the House of Commons objected. It seems that it has been May who has been the defiant three-year old. And that is why all votes failed.
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Post by tangent on Apr 9, 2019 7:23:36 GMT
EU seems to have a never-ending patience with UK. Donald Tusk has had an immense amount of patience but it's wearing thin on the rest of the EU, especially France's Emmanuel Macron. The Netherlands are starting to turn against the UK too. Angela Merkel is very keen to avoid No Deal because of the effect it would have both on their car industry and on the border with the Republic of Ireland. But I think Macron is ready to give up. The British members of parliament seem to me like defiant three-year olds, shouting "No, no, no" to every proposal. Jacob Rees-Mogg is the three year old whilst May and the other MPs are behaving like the intransigent old people they are.
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Post by ceptimus on Apr 9, 2019 19:38:29 GMT
EU want to keep the UK as close as possible - they would still prefer us to revoke Article 50 (so staying in the EU) but failing that they'd like us in the customs union (and possibly the Single Market too). So they're likely to keep granting extensions in the hope that eventually everyone tires of the process and settles for remain or very-soft Brexit.
That seems to be the policy of all the remain-supporting UK MPs too. They keep saying 'let the people decide' or similar, but what they really mean but won't say is, 'do whatever is necessary to cancel Brexit'. Their policy seems to be working so far. Their intention is to drag things out for another year or so - by which time things may have changed enough to allow their preferred 'remain' policy - and if not, they'll be able to argue, "It's now over four years since the referendum, so it's time to have another vote to see how voters attitudes have changed."
Remainers don't support having 'leave no deal' as an option on any future referendum - so if it happens it will likely be a choice between a watered-down May deal (so mostly remain) or remain.
It will be a bit like being in a restaurant and being asked to choose tea or coffee for the whole group: the group narrowly decides on tea and then is kept waiting for hours till they're all very thirsty. During this time the restaurant staff argue about whether they have enough teapots, the relative costs of tea and coffee, the health benefits of both drinks and so on. The group is then given a repeat choice - this time between white coffee or black coffee.
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Post by spaceflower on Apr 10, 2019 23:15:56 GMT
So ceptimus, are you a brexiteer? Maybe you can explain what is so good with Brexit then?
One cause of the problems it that the brexiteers made a sloppy job before the referendum. What would Brexit mean and what was the plan? How would they solve the North Ireland problem? Nobody knew.
Another cause is that the politicians don't seem to want to cooperate. Not even within the Tory party.
Do you really think that a "no deal" is in Britain's best interest?
Just this eveninng I watched on TV a flower grower lamenting that his flowers were withering. His EU-workers had left b/c of the uncertainty. The same goes for other business men, like restaurant owners. They can't get the employees (cooks etc) they need.
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Post by whollygoats on Apr 10, 2019 23:34:59 GMT
Restaurant owners cannot get the cooks they need to operate?
Lard, will British food return to what it was the last millenium?
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Post by ceptimus on Apr 11, 2019 0:18:53 GMT
So ceptimus, are you a brexiteer? Maybe you can explain what is so good with Brexit then? I'm not that bothered about Brexit. Remain would be better than the current 'deal' which is a half-in half-out fudge - and the 'deal' is only likely to get worse from here. What concerns me most is broken promises by governments, parties, and MPs. MPs voted overwhelmingly to hold a referendum, the government of the day spelt out in their infamous leaflet (posted to every house in the country at taxpayer's expense) that it was a once-in-a-generation choice and that they would implement whatever the people voted for. The same leaflet said that leaving meant leaving the customs union and single market and that we would likely be poorer as a result. After the referendum was won by leave, no doubt to the dismay of most MPs, the MPs nethertheles voted overwhelmingly to trigger article 50, and wrote into UK law that we would leave after two years, with or without a deal. There was then a General Election where both main parties stood on manifestos of implementing Brexit. Then the backsliding began, which has led us to the current shambles.
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Post by tangent on Apr 11, 2019 9:00:58 GMT
Yes, broken promises, but David Cameron's party asked us to vote for an impossible Brexit. I'd rather have a broken promise than pretending to implement something we didn't vote for.
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Post by tangent on Apr 11, 2019 9:11:35 GMT
What concerns me most is broken promises by governments, parties, and MPs. Yes, broken promises because everyone voted for their own idea of Brexit. If you voted for Brexit-A and Theresa May implements Brexit-B, she has broken the government's promise. In fact, David Cameron's party asked us to vote for an impossible Brexit. Most people thought they were voting for No Deal without repercussions. I'd rather have a broken promise than pretending to implement something we didn't vote for.
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Post by spaceflower on Apr 11, 2019 9:50:01 GMT
europeforum.freeforums.net/thread/3086/wot-brexit?page=2#ixzz5kmKuv5hjNo doubt the MPs thought that a referendum was democratic. But obviously Brexit was too complicated for the people (and the MPs) to grasp. I cannnot understand how people could vote for something which would make their country poorer. Did they think "other people will be poorer but not me"? Or did they think the information in the leaflet was a lie?
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Post by ceptimus on Apr 11, 2019 14:51:09 GMT
I cannnot understand how people could vote for something which would make their country poorer. Remember it was (and remains) only a PREDICTION, that the country would be poorer. 1. Some people didn't believe the predictions. Economic predictions by governments and others are notoriously inaccurate, so there is good reason to distrust and (to some extent) ignore them. 2. Some people voted leave as a protest vote, but were confident that 'remain' would win - so the predictions were irrelevant to them. 3. Some people did believe that the country would be poorer, but thought that other factors were more important than simple economic concerns. All perfectly valid reasons for voting 'leave' - remember in any election or referendum people will choose how and why to vote based on a variety of competing concerns. The simple matter of how rich or poor they are likely to be in the future might be the overriding concern for many people - and no doubt those people, providing they also had some level of faith in government economic forecasts, all voted 'remain' last time.
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Post by whollygoats on Apr 11, 2019 17:12:27 GMT
So...When do they start the wall?
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Post by tangent on Apr 11, 2019 17:44:07 GMT
No doubt the MPs thought that at a referendum was democratic. But obviously Brexit was too complicated for the people (and the MPs) to grasp. I thought it was democratic until I saw the newspaper campaigns. Vote Leave and Best for Remain both spent £7 million on their campaigns but the Daily Mail and the Sun together spent hundreds of millions of pounds campaigning to leave the EU. We cannot have a democratic referendum whilst we have a free press.
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