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Post by Moose on Nov 16, 2019 22:45:37 GMT
I haven't really been following what's going on - can someone give me a tldr version? What is the likely outcome?
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Post by whollygoats on Nov 17, 2019 5:24:27 GMT
We are presently in day three of public testimony from State Department and White House personnel involved in the infamous 'July 25 phone call'.
First, we had statements from US State Department Charge d'Affairs (substitute ambassador) to Ukraine William Taylor and career foreign service officer George Kent. They testified as to the presence of a 'parallel foreign policy' being run in Ukraine by Rudy Guiliani on behalf of 'his client' Dumbshit Donny. Implicated were Ambassador Gordon Sondland, Ambassador Kurt Volker, and Rick Perry, US Secretary of Energy, (jocularly known as 'The Three Amigos', all now 'unindicted co-conspirators') all working in concert with Guiliani. Bill Barr, Attorney General, was also tangentially implicated.
Then, we had testimony from Lt. Col. Vindman, a National Security Staffer and specialist in Ukraine issues, who had been one of the White House staffers who actually partook of listening to the Trump-Velenskii call on July 25. During his testimony, he noted that he had noted discrepancies in the transcript of the call and endeavored to correct them. But, he noted that he was prevented from so doing, despite it being his official capacity to do so.
Today, we had testimony from Marie Yovanovitch, former US Ambassador to Ukraine, who related how she was threatened and harrassed by critics in the White House and basically driven from her position. She did not know why. It is now clear that it was done to get her out of the way of Guiliani, as she was considered a risk to the 'parallel policy' crowd. Of course, in the midst of the hearing, the mango shitgibbon (who, it was asserted, was ignoring the hearings) found it necessary to toss some very public shitballs at Ambassador Yovanovitch while she was giving testimony to the Impeachment Inquiry Committee....Thereby, clearly engaging in a very open and public 'witness tampering', an impeachable offense.
Of course, the karma was all the sweeter when, just an hour later, his longtime political advisor and flaming fuckwit, Roger Stone, was convicted on all counts in his case of Congressional perjury and witness tampering in the Mueller investigation outfall. So, Stone faces some 30 years for felonies....witness tampering.
Next up, the OMB (Office of Management & Budget) staffer who signed the order to put a hold on the funds allocated to Ukraine defense purchases....to find out why and at whose orders.
In the process, new information has arisen which may well place Ambassador Sondland (an as yet unindicted co-conspirator) in jeopardy of perjury. There will be much tap-dancing on his part, soon.
In other news, two 'business associates' of Rudy Guiliani were arrested a couple weeks back at Miami airport, trying to make a one-way exit from the US. They have been arraigned and have pending cases for their illicit involvement in funneling foreign monies in to US political campaigns. One of them, Lev Parnas, had even paid Guiliani a retainer of $500,000....evidently so that Parnas could say that he was a member of an investigative committee working for the President. Of course, one needs to remember that Guiliani is working as personal attorney to the President on a pro bono basis (he is not being paid by the shitgibbon). It could be construed that Guiliani works for Parnas representing Trump.
Watching the shitgibbon's apologists in Congress is nauseating. I honestly do not know how Adam Shiff restrains himself from delivering a sharp elbow to the face of Devon Nunes, who is seated immediately to Shiff's left and is the senior minority (Reptilian) member of the committee(s).
So...You gotz questions?
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Post by Moose on Nov 17, 2019 22:48:58 GMT
*shakes head but appreciates the synopsis*
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Post by whollygoats on Nov 18, 2019 17:06:04 GMT
Hee hee hee hee...
Now, the inquiry is looking in to the Mueller case depositions to determine whether the president, in his written deposition, perjured himself with false and misleading testimony.
The Shiff hits the fan!
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Post by tangent on Nov 18, 2019 20:56:34 GMT
So much has come out yesterday and today. How much longer are we to expect the tri... erm, impeachment to continue?
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Post by Moose on Nov 18, 2019 23:04:12 GMT
What is more important is - you've said before, Kelly, that it's unlikely that he will be removed from office (other people have said so too). What is any likely penalty to be, then?
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Post by whollygoats on Nov 19, 2019 0:21:05 GMT
So much has come out yesterday and today. How much longer are we to expect the tri... erm, impeachment to continue? It is not yet a trial, but an inquiry. It is more like the police and the prosecutors preparing a case by gathering, marshaling, and preparing the evidence. The trial, to remove him from office, does not begin until the House of Representatives publishes the Articles of Impeachment, basically an indictment, delineating the 'high crimes and misdemeanors' which they accuse the president of having committed. There, in the Senate trial, he gets the trappings of representation he seems to think are his due at this inappropriate point. The majority leader of the Senate, Senator McConnell, noted that he expected the impeachment articles to come to the Senate some time around the end of the year. Just keep in mind that the President is a total idiot and does not understand most of what is happening. He has even had the temerity to call various portions of the procedures 'unconstitutional', as though his saying so makes it so. He is a fucking moron filled with shit.
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Post by whollygoats on Nov 19, 2019 0:26:00 GMT
What is more important is - you've said before, Kelly, that it's unlikely that he will be removed from office (other people have said so too). What is any likely penalty to be, then? The only consequence of impeachment and trial for removal is removal from office. Once removed from office, the former holder of that office can be indicted and tried for any of the crimes committed. Just like any other American. I will prophecy that he and his will whinge about how the nation cannot 'persecute a former US President' as it would 'unseemly' or some such bullshit. That, or he'll continue to follow his line of thought about starting a new civil war by unleashing the Trumpers upon the nation. Of course, if he is removed from office, there is always the possibility that his successor will pardon him. That would relieve him of federal indictments, but leave all the various violations of state laws in place. It is a toss-up. If the House impeaches but the Senate refuses to convict and remove, then there should be on record a vote of each and every senator in the US Senate. When 70% of the American public believes that something wrong has been perpetrated in the Ukraine, those senators who allow the perpetrator to get away scot-free will be targeted in the upcoming national elections, now less than a year in the future....The longer the procedure drags on, the clearer the results will be in the minds of the electorate come the election. It will then depend upon the voters to replace both president and those senators up for election. Then, the regular indictments can fly.... Personally, I would look to see him die in prison.
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Post by whollygoats on Nov 19, 2019 21:59:21 GMT
Rumors are now circulating that the mango shitgibbon, in a fit of pique, will not sign the just passed legislation to keep the federal government up and running. It is a revisitation of the last Nightmare Over Christmas of last year.
Cheeses....One would think that he might have learned from the last debacle of shutting down the federal government. But, no....
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Post by tangent on Nov 20, 2019 0:49:19 GMT
Grabs another tub of popcorn
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Post by whollygoats on Nov 20, 2019 4:36:49 GMT
Just out of interest, does anybody here still think (if you ever did) that our bad precedent is actually as smart as he thinks he is?
I mean, really...Is this circus evidence of deep and abiding genius? It's more like a trainwreck brought in to being by inept clowns. Very venal inept clowns.
This is NOT the work of a devious intellect, a stable genius.
Evidently, Lev Parnas, one of the Two Shreks, Guiliani's Ukrainian 'associates', is eagerly chomping at the bit to testify before the committee.
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Post by whollygoats on Nov 20, 2019 6:53:00 GMT
Hey...Sondland is up tomorrow! He is a key witness, should he opt to spill the beans.
This should be quite the tap dance routine. He has already 'amended' his original deposition after prompting by testimony offered up by other witnesses.
Today's testimony blew a huge frikken hole in the Reptilian claims of 'second or third hand witnesses' claim nonsense. Both were on the fated July 25 call. Both were first hand witnesses, both listening in on the same fateful call, both of whom noted that the official 'transcript' or 'summary' of the call did not contain mention of Burisma, despite both witnesses listening in noting that it had been mentioned.
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Post by whollygoats on Nov 20, 2019 18:21:40 GMT
Hoooooo-eeeeeee. Sondland went with spilling the whole can of beans and throwing a Nuremburg Defence in on top of it all.
This looks like multi-millionaire Sondland decided he did not wish to spend time in jail as a federal convict. The 'No Quid Pro Quo' defence is dead; Sondland has clearly and explicitly, and repeatedly, before the committee, asserted that it was a 'this for that' deal. It was solicitation of bribery and it WAS at the ultimate direction of the president. 'Hands-on' direction. By the President.
That, there should convict and remove. Any US Senator voting to not remove is protecting a felon in office, and they themselves should be removed from office ASAP.
See how that works? I'm of the view that there are 33 US senators with their eye on the coming elections, and a signficant portion of those are Republicans (read: close allies of the felon in the Oval Office). Having a scandal of this magnitude this close to an election makes the decisions of the miscreant's allies all the more complex and difficult.
**schadenfreude**
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Post by tangent on Nov 20, 2019 21:52:03 GMT
Nevertheless, the BBC reports that 65% of the American public believe nothing can change their minds as to whether President Trump should be impeached. In other words, the truth is unimportant.
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Post by whollygoats on Nov 20, 2019 22:07:09 GMT
And, yet, another poll reports that 70% of Americans think that the President has done something wrong in the Ukraine machinations, while 53% want him impeached and removed from office.
Pick your poll, shop your numbers. Donny Dumbshit still has the absolute worst ratings of any sitting president since they started doing polls.
I disagree with your assertion that 'the truth is unimportant'. As I have already noted, the truth of the matter may not sway the fucking morons in the US Senate, but it will have weight in how many American voters will cast their votes in the impending elections which will determine who will occupy the White House and a third of the US Senate seats in the coming year.
I suspect that the paranoia may well push the mango shitgibbon to overindulge in his already excessive drug use and induce a major health crisis.
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Post by tangent on Nov 20, 2019 22:37:41 GMT
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Post by whollygoats on Nov 21, 2019 6:36:45 GMT
Hmmm...It seems that then Vice President Biden was actively enforcing then extant policy regarding Ukraine and its rampant corruption problem. Even if true, it sure doesn't say that Biden was seeking dirt on his domestic political opponents from the Ukrainians.
Do you not understand where the lapse in ethical judgment is?
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Post by tangent on Nov 21, 2019 11:15:43 GMT
Do you not understand where the lapse in ethical judgement is? Of course, I realised that but does it in any way weaken the Democrat's case? My Republican friends probably think it resolves Trump of all blame, which is ridiculous. But it could be argued that it weakens the case for impeachment.
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Post by whollygoats on Nov 21, 2019 15:55:49 GMT
Do you not understand where the lapse in ethical judgement is? Of course, I realised that but does it in any way weaken the Democrat's case? My Republican friends probably think it resolves Trump of all blame, which is ridiculous. But it could be argued that it weakens the case for impeachment. I don't think it strengthens the Republican's case at all. Because Biden brought US policy to bear to remove a corrupt Ukraine official is not the same as running a parallel policy to established State Department policy which attempts to shake down a newly-elected Ukraine government for privileged access and to generate a domestic political scandal to smear one's political rivals. Given the commentary of the likes of Sondland, Trump had absolutely NO interest in doing anything to reduce political corruption in Ukraine, he just wanted them to announce (and not even prosecute) a pending investigation in to Burisma and the Bidens. Indeed, everything I've heard STRENGTHENS the case for impeachment. And, then...There is the chant which Dumbshit Donny has been repeating for weeks...."No Quid Pro Quo" has now been revealed to be a repeated attempt to obstruct justice, and a known misrepresentation of the facts. Not only did the mango shitgibbon not give a shit about Ukraine corruption, he actually imposed American corruption upon the entire Ukrainian scene and made an international laughing stock out of the US as a hypocritical and unreliable ally, thereby trashing our foreign policy worldwide. This has also aided the Russians in their conflict with Ukraine, NATO, and the US. Fuck Trump and his whole den of thieves. I want them all to rot in prison. Trump should die in prison.
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Post by whollygoats on Nov 21, 2019 19:40:36 GMT
Also...I will note that Biden's actions were during the Obama administration. Since that time, the Reptilians have had control of the House during half of the Obama administration and two years of the Trump administration (where they had control of ALL portions of the US government) and they failed to prosecute then. If this was as open as it is being represented, why did not the House undertake to reprimand Biden for his actions? A: Because he was enforcing a policy agreed upon by both parties, and he was not diverting Congressionally approved funds to advance his own partisan interests, like the mango shitgibbon has.
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Post by Moose on Nov 21, 2019 20:59:06 GMT
To go back to your other question, I know that there's a school of thought that says that Trump is actually very clever and just pretends to be an idiot to pander to his base. I do not believe it. I believe that this man generally does have a fairly low level of intelligence and very limited understanding of what he is doing. I also think he genuinely does not realise it.
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Post by tangent on Nov 21, 2019 21:28:22 GMT
That is my view too.
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Post by whollygoats on Nov 22, 2019 14:18:42 GMT
Good. I tend to consider him to be the epitome of the Dunning-Kruger Effect. The poster boy, for that matter.
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Post by whollygoats on Nov 22, 2019 20:30:28 GMT
LOCK. THEM. UP.
ALL OF THEM.
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Post by ceptimus on Nov 23, 2019 1:15:22 GMT
Trump doesn't seem very smart to me, but I think the crime of withholding a deal with Ukraine to get what the President wanted is probably not at all unusual. I suspect most past presidents have done the same sort of thing, or worse, but they were smart enough to keep their actions secret.
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Post by Kye on Nov 23, 2019 3:25:47 GMT
I think anyone with a brain hates Trump. That doesn't mean he'll be impeached, unfortunately, or that he won't get elected next time...
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Post by whollygoats on Nov 23, 2019 4:05:40 GMT
Or that the election results won't be tampered with to assure his return...
This brings up the topic of Mitch McConnell and the Senate Reptilians.
This is why the posture of bad precedent and the GOP as 'corruption fighters' is bad taste in extreme. They are spreading corruption, not stopping it.
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Post by whollygoats on Nov 23, 2019 4:11:29 GMT
Trump doesn't seem very smart to me, but I think the crime of withholding a deal with Ukraine to get what the President wanted is probably not at all unusual. I suspect most past presidents have done the same sort of thing, or worse, but they were smart enough to keep their actions secret. Despite the rather obvious example of Nixon and CREEP, I am unaware of much in the way of international interference in US elections. And even less of soliciting bribery from foreign states to actively interfere. But then, maybe that's because all the others were just better at keeping it on the QT. Wait...There was the Iran-Contra Scandal, but I don't know as that had any effect upon national elections. But, Reagan interfering in the release of US Hostages in the Iranian Revolution is probably a better corollary, but then, Reagan was not even a US official. He just directed a coup by cooperating with a hostile foreign power to manipulate the media to get himself elected. And, of course, Bill Clinton was accused of using the Sarajevo Crisis to get himself re-elected...'Wag The Dog'. So, given all this, we should allow....nay, welcome...the shitheaded involvement of our leadership inviting foreign interests to dabble with scandal in our elections? We should just forgive this because we did not catch, or effectively counter other instances of overreach? Is that it? I think that is a fucked up way to view things. It ends up allowing practically anything and everything.
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Post by whollygoats on Nov 23, 2019 5:59:08 GMT
Ahem...To the UK:
Thanks for Dr. Fiona Hill.
She's a keeper.
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Post by ceptimus on Nov 23, 2019 6:53:18 GMT
But Trump wasn't really inviting Ukraine to "dabble in USA election" - rather he was attempting to get them to publicly investigate the dodgy deal with Biden's son.
And there was something fishy about that deal, given Biden Junior's lack of experience and inability to speak the language - why were they employing him and paying him so much? Is that not a legitimate subject of public interest?
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