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Post by juju on Aug 5, 2014 13:22:32 GMT
This is by far the most ambitious of the books, but there are a number of questions / possible plot holes I'm pondering.
Firstly, how is it possible for Lyra to be separated from Pan and still be 'whole' and not in a zombie state? Ditto the ghosts of Lee and John Parry - they seem pretty switched on.
Also, how come the ghosts of Lee and John Parry can stay whole and fight Spectres in the real world instead of disintegrating like the rest of the ghosts? I thought that was the whole idea, that the ghosts would rather disintegrate into molecules than stay in the Land of the Dead.
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Post by JoeP on Aug 5, 2014 16:46:02 GMT
I will have to pay attention to these points when I get to book 3
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Post by raspberrybullets on Aug 7, 2014 10:05:30 GMT
Don't they fight the Spectres in the Land of the Dead? Or at least they sort of walk out of it into Asriel's mountain. Once they finish fighting they also disintegrate into atoms in the mulefa world.
That btw, is my favourite thing of all the books. The wonderful way people die by becoming part of the world. Just like what happens in real life! Beautiful.
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Post by raspberrybullets on Aug 7, 2014 10:08:12 GMT
Regarding Lyra still being whole - this is why I don't think that a deamon would equate to what some people might consider a soul. it clearly doesn't make her zombie like, but the seperation is not a cut like in Bolvanger so there is a difference there.
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Post by juju on Aug 7, 2014 10:26:30 GMT
Yeah, the daemon thing is explained later in the book (I've just finished it) - Lyra's and Will's daemons have become like witches'.
I'm still not sure about John Parry and Lee not disintegrating though. It claims they choose to stay and fight the spectres on Asriel's mountain. If ghosts can choose whether to stay whole (even if they have to stay ghosts) in the outside world, then surely some would want that, rather than disintegrating?
Also, I find the whole description of the disintegration of ghosts to be a bit contradictory. On the one hand he describes ghosts turning into atoms (which of course means all consciousness disintegrates) but on the other he implies that Lee will be reunited with Hester, Lyra with Will etc, which simply can't be the case. Atoms are atoms and not conscious - they become part of the universe. I get the feeling he wants to give the reader some sort of 'happy ever after' scenario but he can't have it both ways.
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Post by raspberrybullets on Aug 7, 2014 11:49:01 GMT
I think this might depend on your perspective. From my point of view I find it to be a fairly accurate description of what actually happens just romaticised with an idea that those atoms could all come together and bits of Lyra will be in the grass and bits of WIll will be in the grass and that's how they are together but it never came accross to me as though there was any consciousness involved in that. To me that is happy ever after - I find the idea of us all becoming part of the universe, and being made from the universe in the first place - a lovely notion. I think Pullman describes it in a more fantastical way but the essence is the same. I wonder if from a more theistic point of view this seems unsatisfying? To me there is no implication that any of them will be "together" again. Only that their atoms will be mixing. I find that thought happy.
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Post by juju on Aug 7, 2014 12:03:25 GMT
'.. the last of Lee Scoresby passed through the heavy clouds and came out under the brilliant stars, where the atoms of his beloved Hester were waiting for him'.
'I will love you for ever, whatever happens. Till I die and after I die, and when I find my way out of the land of the dead I'll drift about for ever, all my atoms, till I find you again'.
To me, this seems a bit of a cop out. If he wants to say we disintegrate into unconscious matter then he shouldn't also be confusing things by implying that matter has any sort of consciousness and can wait for or be reunited as if it were conscious. He can't have it both ways... like I said, it's like he wants to provide a sort of happy ending with atoms all finding each other again and living happily ever after, but atoms are just atoms.
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Post by raspberrybullets on Aug 7, 2014 12:16:42 GMT
Yep, they are. We're just atoms now too. I see what you're saying I think, but as mentioned, to me it is the interpretation. I interpret those lines as fanciful ways of saying that Lee Scorsby atoms and Hester atoms are getting mixed up in the starts. And Lyra and Will atoms are getting mixed up in the universe. There is nothing in those quotes that says they are conscious or aware.
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Post by juju on Aug 7, 2014 12:19:28 GMT
And actually, the whole land of the dead thing doesn't make much sense, to be honest. Surely Lyra would prefer to spend time in the land of the dead with Will rather than disintegrate into nothingness and never see him again? Maybe they could make it a nicer place anyway - she managed to turn the harpies nice after all
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Post by juju on Aug 7, 2014 12:24:56 GMT
There is nothing in those quotes that says they are conscious or aware. 'Ill be looking for you Will, every moment, every single moment. And when we do find each other again we'll cling together so tightly that nothing and no-one will tear us apart'. That certainly implies that Lyra at least thinks that atoms are conscious. And I think it is a cop-out - I think Pullman can't bear to say to the reader that Will and Lyra will never meet again. But that is the case if they disintegrate.
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Post by raspberrybullets on Aug 7, 2014 12:26:04 GMT
It's a wasteland. You don't grow, you don't eat, you don't sleep. It's just a nothing. Better to disintegrate into something I think.
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Post by raspberrybullets on Aug 8, 2014 9:25:31 GMT
I had a thought last night which I almost forgot but remembered it now! I do think that Pullman does at times seem to cop out of things. I've heard interviews and he is always so vague with his answers like he's trying to appease all the christians. Not sure if it's just that he wants to allow people to create their own interpretations but it seems to me like he deliberately panders to whoever is interviewing him, if that makes any sense.
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Post by juju on Aug 10, 2014 19:18:21 GMT
So I've finished all the books for the second time (well, a couple of days ago), and I think on balance I still feel the same about them as I did ten years ago when I last read them. I found them really exciting, there are some intriguing ideas in them, but ultimately I felt they were anticlimactic. I always cry buckets at the end of LOTR, and even cried at the last Harry Potter book, but for some reason the end of HDM leaves me a bit cold. Maybe there are just too many unanswered questions, and maybe the whole 'we'll meet again as atoms' thing is just too much of a cop-out, but I remained unmoved. Having said that, I'm really glad I've read them again and they are a rollicking good story.
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