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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2014 9:15:51 GMT
There has been a bit of an outrage in this country on the weekend. The CSU published some paper on integration in which they said that foreign people should speak German in public as well as at home. There were jokes and sarcastic remarks on Twitter and the question of how politicians could possibly tell people which language to speak in their own homes. Of course, people who want to live there should learn German, but demanding that they basically abandon their own language to speak German at home is ignorant and stupid. I had a quick conversation with the head of one of the tutoring facilities about it and she told me she had known Turk is mothers who spoke perfect German but spoke Turk is with their children and how could they do that? Lots of people don't seem to understand what language means, that it's part of your own culture which people can't or don't just want to abandon.
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Post by Miisa on Dec 9, 2014 9:58:55 GMT
At home? It's not just about culture, being able to speak more languages is a definite wealth. In my experience, children who grow up with one language at home and another at school & with friends learn both pretty well, and the "outside home" one well enough to classify as a native speaker. I can't pass as a native speaker of any language, but that is more due to the changing "outside home" languages a few times during my childhood and adolescence.
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Post by JoeP on Dec 9, 2014 10:15:38 GMT
So this wasn't just some individual politician spouting ill-considered nonsense, but an official statement of a party?
Perhaps they would like everyone also to speak standard German with no regional dialects or accents?
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Post by JoeP on Dec 9, 2014 10:16:40 GMT
I've met four year olds fluent in English, Polish and Tswana.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2014 10:35:03 GMT
Perhaps they would like everyone also to speak standard German with no regional dialects or accents? That would be a big issue in Bavaria, where the CSU made that statement. Their regional dialects can be hard to understand even for native speakers of German.
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Post by JoeP on Dec 9, 2014 10:42:01 GMT
Time to call their bluff, then!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2014 11:46:17 GMT
There was a bit of a shitstorm, but I still think people lack a general understanding of language and what it means and that you can't just abandon yours. People have told Frank and me that we should speak German at home because his German has a lotof mistakesand he has a strong accent. But ours isa very personal relationship and we can't just change the language we use to communicate.
There is a nagging suspicion that basically, some Germans want foreign people to abandon theirown culture and everything that makes them in any way different from Germans and instead turn into "proper" Germans - which is a very old-fashioned view. We live in a multicultural society in which "the proper German" is ceasing to exist anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2014 12:42:31 GMT
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Post by Mari on Dec 9, 2014 16:22:28 GMT
I've met four year olds fluent in English, Polish and Tswana. Take Genie's kids for example.
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Post by JoeP on Dec 9, 2014 16:31:00 GMT
I think she'd be pretty upset with me.
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Post by Kye on Dec 9, 2014 16:49:11 GMT
*groan*
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Post by Mari on Dec 9, 2014 17:34:14 GMT
*sigh* Though you never know. Her eldest has hit puberty. She might not mind.
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Post by tangent on Dec 9, 2014 18:48:45 GMT
Ha!
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Post by Moose on Dec 9, 2014 21:18:06 GMT
Hmm well, turning everyone into 'proper Germans' has been tried before and we all know how that went down. I really don't think that telling people what language they should speak in their own home is acceptable or indeed enforceable.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2014 22:40:17 GMT
Hmm well, turning everyone into 'proper Germans' has been tried before and we all know how that went down. That's what I thought and I find it a bit scary.
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Post by ProdigalAlan on Dec 9, 2014 22:54:51 GMT
We have a lady who comes from the town where I live, her name is Saira Khan, her parents came here from Pakistan.
She's done very well for herself, particularly on TV and we are all very proud of her.
One of the issues she has raised is that her parents have been here for over 30 years and her mother still can't speak English.
I understand that the choice of language one uses at home is entirely up to you.
But Saira's mother never goes out on her own. To me that's very sad and can't be right.
Language is empowerment and there are many women from patriarchal societies who are being being denied that empowerment.
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Post by raspberrybullets on Dec 9, 2014 22:55:00 GMT
Just tell not not to speak German when they're in thy're in other countries and see how they like that.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2014 22:57:22 GMT
Just tell not not to speak German when they're in thy're in other countries and see how they like that. Or their Bavarian accents here in Germany.
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Post by raspberrybullets on Dec 9, 2014 23:54:36 GMT
Gee I just saw how messy my sentence was there! Sorry about that!
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Post by Kate on Dec 10, 2014 8:04:54 GMT
I've met four year olds fluent in English, Polish and Tswana. I always find that amazing but slightly depressing as I'm struggling with keeping up French and learning German at the same time :/
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2014 8:19:25 GMT
One of the issues she has raised is that her parents have been here for over 30 years and her mother still can't speak English. I understand that the choice of language one uses at home is entirely up to you. But Saira's mother never goes out on her own. To me that's very sad and can't be right. Language is empowerment and there are many women from patriarchal societies who are being being denied that empowerment. You have a point, but would she go out on her own if she spoke English at home? I understand there is a problem with women not getting out and not learning the language, but that won't be changed by telling hem to speak the language of the country they live in at home. People keep telling me I need to speak Germany with Frank as well, but it's nobody's business which language we speak. Because of my relationship with Frank, I understand how personal language is and people just don't see that.
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Post by ProdigalAlan on Dec 10, 2014 18:59:41 GMT
I may be very very wrong about this but I don't think this is about people like you and Frank, where English is the migrant language being used.
I may be very wrong but I have the feeling that this is much more directed towards Germany's large Turkish population, where there are many issues surrounding the education of women. Language is empowerment, if you can't speak the language of the country you live in you cannot make your presence known.
( BTW when I worked in Germany it was an accepted practice that my german colleagues and I spoke English at work but I had to speak german when we went out in the evening. I can't say that my German was that good, but I did have some nice nights out on my own in Frankfurt. So long as I tried my best, I always found the German people very understanding and willing to help me. )
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Post by kingedmund on Dec 14, 2014 20:26:12 GMT
We plan on vacationing in Germany soon. That worries me about being able to speak. Of course my best friend lives in hamburg. She and Jan are going to take us around.
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Post by Shake on Dec 28, 2014 23:24:29 GMT
Briefly, I'll just said it's a widely held thought in my country that those coming here really should learn English. I've also heard much about how American tourists are really bad at expecting those in other countries to be able to expect to understand our English. I don't have the numbers, but I'm sure we're near the bottom in the percentage of our population who are multi-lingual.
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Post by Mari on Dec 29, 2014 8:55:47 GMT
We plan on vacationing in Germany soon. That worries me about being able to speak. Of course my best friend lives in hamburg. She and Jan are going to take us around. I wouldn't worry. What the people saying this sort of stuff mean is that they want the obviously not Western people supposedly taking their jobs etc. etc. to learn German because if they don't it's a reason for kicking them out of the country. All in the guise of wanting to help them of course. Tourists can speak English all they want. Germans are quite able to understand English.
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Post by kingedmund on Dec 29, 2014 15:14:59 GMT
Oh that makes me feel better. Even though I'm mostly German blood in me.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2014 8:58:59 GMT
I understand that people living here need to learn Germany, but nobody should have told them they need to speak Germany at home. That means giving up their own language which is part of their culture. And I know people also say it concerns the non-western people, but Frank has heard nasty remarks as well exams he speaks with a strong accentand makes lots of grammar mistakes, so people have told him we hhold speak German at home. He speaks well enough to cope with anything by himself, but people here want it to b flawless, him speak in as if he was German. If it W's directed just at people from non-western countries, the way some people claim, that makes it worse. So it's okay for people from America or Norway or Denmark to speak their own language at home, but those from Turkey or Pakistan are not supposed to speak their own language at all?
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Post by Mari on Dec 30, 2014 13:59:07 GMT
Here in the Netherlands there is that culture, yes. With our favourite Geert Wilders leading them. There is some logic behind it though: Americans, Japanese, Norwegians, etc. usually come here for specialised jobs and will go back home after 2 or 3 years. Moroccan, Turkish and now also Polish and other Eastern Europe peoples on the other hand tend to stay and have families here. Therefore the linguistic problems usually are with those groups. Pretty much every city has an area where mostly Turkish or Moroccan people live with their own shops etc. It's a little enclave in an otherwise Dutch town. With all the problems and prejudices that exist on both sides of the fence (figurative fence), people try to come up with solutions and trying to make them speak Dutch is one of the solutions. And at first it is voiced with the best intentions: enabling them to participate in our society and thus decreasing their dependence. But then groups like Wilders' pick it up and add conditions or try to use it as a way of getting rid of these people. Personally, I think if you want more people to speak German or Dutch, you should go to their community centres (most "enclaves" have one, since their cultures are more community based than ours, so use it!) and offer courses there on a voluntary basis. Start with basics such as going shopping, things they need in their daily lives and leave the enforcing of Dutch culture out until you see how well your teaching is received. Then ask an "acclimatized" Moroccan/Turkish/Polish/whatever person to come talk about Dutch values and how he/she juggles the two different cultures. That will work much better. By the by: has anyone ever noticed no one ever talks about making the Chinese integrate better? Apparently since they are perceived as successful and not degrading their women/children/whatever they are forgotten.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2014 23:53:47 GMT
Sorry for all the mistakes, by the way. Am still struggling with autocorrect and this tablet.
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Post by tangent on Dec 31, 2014 1:40:31 GMT
Some tablets are bad for autocorrect.
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