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Post by Moose on Mar 27, 2015 15:33:56 GMT
The paper which calls anyone who does not work as a result of mental health problems 'scroungers' and appears to believe that all claimants on MH grounds are frauds today has a front page headline asking why the German pilot was allowed to fly when he had a history of depression.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2015 17:46:39 GMT
I hate how the media are using this. It is disgusting!
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Post by Alvamiga on Mar 27, 2015 19:42:58 GMT
It's called a double-standard. They are perfectly entitled to it!
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Post by Alvamiga on Mar 27, 2015 19:43:08 GMT
No they're not!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2015 20:19:26 GMT
Here in Germany, loads of people now seem to claim to be in some way affected by the crash. They live close to the town that the school class was from or a friend of a friend lost a friend there or they have flown with Germany ins in he past.
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Post by JoeP on Mar 27, 2015 20:59:52 GMT
The DM is not a scientific research paper. Not a doctoral thesis. They don't care if different articles in the same edition contradict each other.
Actually, there might not even be a contradiction here - they probably believe someone with mental health problems should be required to work menial minimum-wage jobs, but not anything where they could endanger "responsible" members of society.
Cleaning out the aircraft's loos, not flying it.
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Post by JoeP on Mar 27, 2015 21:12:47 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2015 21:39:44 GMT
Interesting. Kind of expresses the bad feelings I have had about the way people have been talking abut that pilot. Nobody even knows what his problem exactly was.
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Post by Moose on Mar 27, 2015 22:37:00 GMT
I think Joe has hit it perfectly - people with mental illness are expected by the likes of the DM to do 'something' 'useful' (I regularly see comments on there suggesting that anyone on sickness benefit due to mental health issues should be forced to pick litter or similar in order to 'earn' their benefits) and yet by an interesting process of doublethink mental illness both does and does not exist in this mentality. It exists in situations like this, involving a professional person. It does not exist if the local office cleaner takes time off sick for severe depression
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Post by JoeP on Mar 27, 2015 23:04:42 GMT
I thought of another interpretation: the person with mental health problems doesn't get to decide. If they want to fly a plane - they can't. If they want to get benefits - they can't. (Or rather, in each case, somebody else decides.)
This pretty much works for any group the DM marginalises.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2015 23:12:21 GMT
I think you both have point. There is still a lot of stigmatising anyway. I saw that on a Germany forum. Suddenly people with mental illness are 'ticking time bombs'.
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Post by Moose on Mar 27, 2015 23:31:13 GMT
I do not know what was going through this guy's mind. I do think that what he did was very wrong - suicide I can understand; mass murder much less so (not at all actually). But the huge stigma and denial surrounding mental health issues does not help anyone at all.
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Post by tangent on Mar 27, 2015 23:58:55 GMT
I understand because I've been there. When I was 19, I had a horrendous few days of depression. At times, it was intolerable. I would feel relatively fine for most of the day and then I would suddenly be struck with a dark cloud. It would be very severe and would last for 20 minutes. At one time I sought help, at another time, I gritted my teeth and waited until it passed. (I was in hospital at the time.)
I imagine if the pilot had felt like that, he would have been impervious to the rest of the world and would have chosen the only way he knew to end it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2015 0:22:25 GMT
I do not know what was going through this guy's mind. I do think that what he did was very wrong - suicide I can understand; mass murder much less so (not at all actually). But the huge stigma and denial surrounding mental health issues does not help anyone at all. I agree. And we don't know of depression was really the reason or something different. I have been in very dark places myself (and am currently not doing well at all, even though I am not suicidal), but I never considered harming anyone else. And that is the case with the most of people with depression, from what I have heard.
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Post by tangent on Mar 28, 2015 0:33:42 GMT
I seriously doubt that the co-pilot had any thoughts of mass murder. That's not how a depressed person thinks.
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Post by Moose on Mar 28, 2015 0:40:07 GMT
I think you're wrong Steve. He committed mass murder. I know how dark and bad things can be and I know about impulsive suicidal feelings. I'd never taken anyone else with me though. That guy knew he had a planeful of fellow human beings. If he deliberately brought the plane down, he deliberately committed mass murder Kaylee sorry you are feeling low If you want to talk you know where I am?
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Post by tangent on Mar 28, 2015 0:53:59 GMT
I think you're wrong Steve. He committed mass murder. I know how dark and bad things can be and I know about impulsive suicidal feelings. I'd never taken anyone else with me though. That guy knew he had a planeful of fellow human beings. If he deliberately brought the plane down, he deliberately committed mass murder I agree with what you say, he committed mass murder [or mass homicide] and I know you would never do the same. It doesn't change my mind that if he was as depressed as I was in 1963 he would not have been aware of the other people in the plane. I was never in that position, I'm pleased to say. I once drove my dad's car a short distance when I was depressed and recognised that I was not driving well. I was fully cognisant of the danger both to myself and to other people and asked my dad, who was also in the car, to take over. But that was a far cry to two years earlier.
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Post by Moose on Mar 28, 2015 1:39:20 GMT
*huggles Steve*
But .. it seems that he was flying even tho his doctors did not want him to. That makes a difference
I only remember one period - one I try not to remember - where my depression was such that I lost touch with reality and with the fact that other people did not view life as I at the time did. But I don't really want to talk about that (sorry for vaguebooking). I would not have hurt anyone, I think, but .. I do recall thinking how stupid the rest of the world were for not realising what I 'realised,' ie that every single thing was completely and utterly pointless.
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Post by juju on Mar 28, 2015 8:17:53 GMT
I only remember one period - one I try not to remember - where my depression was such that I lost touch with reality and with the fact that other people did not view life as I at the time did. But I don't really want to talk about that (sorry for vaguebooking). I would not have hurt anyone, I think, but .. I do recall thinking how stupid the rest of the world were for not realising what I 'realised,' ie that every single thing was completely and utterly pointless. I spent over a year like that, on and off (mostly on ). Depression is still my greatest fear - I almost completely lost touch with reality. It was terrifying.
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Post by JoeP on Mar 28, 2015 13:05:36 GMT
I seriously doubt that the co-pilot had any thoughts of mass murder. That's not how a depressed person thinks. I'm afraid this is just another piece of Daily Mail thinking: assuming that all mental health issues are the same, that depression is one thing, that it affects everyone in the same way. You don't know what this guy's diagnosis was, let alone whether it was complete. He might have been depressed; he might have had any number of psychological issues. Or he might just have been a self-important sociopath who wanted to kill lots of people, like all those guys who shoot up schools in America.
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Post by juju on Mar 28, 2015 14:09:24 GMT
I've also read that he had been diagnosed with other health problems which were not related to depression, which he was keeping from his employers. I wonder if he thought he was going to die anyway?
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Post by tangent on Mar 28, 2015 23:25:32 GMT
I seriously doubt that the co-pilot had any thoughts of mass murder. That's not how a depressed person thinks. I'm afraid this is just another piece of Daily Mail thinking: assuming that all mental health issues are the same, that depression is one thing, that it affects everyone in the same way. Hey, steady on old chap, your comparing me with the Daily Mail!? You have to look at what else I was saying about depression and not take it out of context. I have seen many severely depressed people and none of them had any thoughts of mass murder. They were totally preoccupied with their own illness, as I was. Of course, we don't have all the facts and so we don't know how depressed he was or whether he was mentally unstable in other ways but I was comparing his thoughts and actions with those of a severely depressed person.
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Post by JoeP on Mar 28, 2015 23:37:30 GMT
Sorry, that was just so I could sell more posts My point is that being depressed doesn't rule out being a mass murderer, because he could have other psychological issues going on as well. Also, we don't know that he was depressed - the news could be wrong, or if correct the diagnosis could have been wrong.
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Post by Alvamiga on Mar 29, 2015 9:58:50 GMT
We could always wait for the facts to come out... ^^^This is irony!
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Post by Mari on Mar 30, 2015 16:42:06 GMT
Here in Germany, loads of people now seem to claim to be in some way affected by the crash. They live close to the town that the school class was from or a friend of a friend lost a friend there or they have flown with Germany ins in he past. This isn't very strange, you know. After Mh17 and also the attack on our royal house in 2009 everyone was shocked and lots of people felt affected, even if they were nowhere near or knew the deceased. I know I felt very connected to MH17 even though I knew no one who died in the crash. I did know people who knew people who died or were related to them. Somehow that makes it hit really close to home.
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