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Post by Moose on Jul 29, 2015 21:26:14 GMT
Apparently, there are still a few 'uncontacted' (for that read 'not really uncontacted but not terribly friendly') tribes in the world, mainly in South America but some in places like PNG. THe prevailing opinion seems to be 'leave them alone' ... like there is something quaint or wonderful about living a 'stone age' existence. Perhaps there is .. I do not know. To go against prevailing opinion though I can't help but think that there's nothing wrong with offering the benefits of a modern day life (I say benefits .. I don't mean go out there to 'convert' them to one religion or another). THoughts?
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Post by tangent on Jul 29, 2015 22:28:18 GMT
The human population has an extremely poor record of modernising tribes, they are much better off left in isolation. They would be exploited and turned into virtual slaves.
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Post by jayme on Jul 29, 2015 22:37:05 GMT
What he said. ^ We also have an excellent record of killing off hordes of previously uncontacted people with our cooties.
Also, after evolving for millions of years living like them, maybe our modernized culture is unnatural to us and is a source of our anxiety, stress, depression, and a multitude of other forms of misery. In other words, how many of us would rather spend every day fishing than going to work?
According to some book I read once, (either Guns, Germs, and Steel or Ishmael?), hunter gatherers only spend about 3 hours a day working. And working is things like hunting, fishing, cooking, and sewing.
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Post by Kye on Jul 29, 2015 22:56:43 GMT
I don't see any need to convert them to our consumer-crazed lifetyle. They would be better to convert us...
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Post by robert on Jul 30, 2015 3:01:37 GMT
I say set up a projector in the middle of the jungle and screen for them "Koyaanisqatsi." Afterwards offer them the choice of modernization or their quaint lifestyle.
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Post by juju on Jul 30, 2015 8:36:16 GMT
I remember seeing a movie ( I think it's called 'The Gods must be Crazy') about coke bottle being thrown out of a plane and landing (unbroken) in a tribe of San bushmen.
The bottle becomes an object of desire and jealousy between them and gets used as a weapon in arguments, so eventually they realise it must be evil and try and throw it away.
It's quite a strong message about the effect that a more consumerist, acquisitional lifestyle might have on those cultures.
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Post by Mari on Jul 30, 2015 9:54:29 GMT
Indeed. I'm happy with my life, but sometimes I think we're so far removed from the earth. Kids these days don't even know where their food comes from, or how much work goes into their meal other than the effort of the parent having cooked it for them. It's rather surreal when you think of it. Also, our world is very individualistic whilst these tribes need to be one tight group in order to survive. "modernizing" them would take generations and would it really make them happy or "better"? I doubt it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2015 10:33:02 GMT
I also think that our lifestyle isn't really better so I'd rather leave them alone.
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Post by Kye on Jul 30, 2015 11:52:39 GMT
I imagine that ultimately it would be up to them. Some of them will fight for their traditional ways, some will get on the novelty bandwagon, and some will set out to acquire as much as humanly possible. Human nature...
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Post by JoeP on Jul 30, 2015 12:12:15 GMT
To go against prevailing opinion though I can't help but think that there's nothing wrong with offering the benefits of a modern day life (I say benefits .. I don't mean go out there to 'convert' them to one religion or another). THoughts? I know where this is going. You want them to join EF and contribute to thousand post quests. Right?
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Post by Moose on Jul 30, 2015 19:56:51 GMT
Of course Really though whilst it's easy to say that their lives are less 'stressful' - and they probably are - I would bet they they are a good deal shorter and involve a lot of physical pain. I presume that many people die from things that here would be considered comparatively trivial - infections, for instance - and that the infant mentality rate (and possibly the rate of deaths in childbirth) are what we'd consider to be really very high. And I don't know .. I mean, all of the things that make me happy are things that come with 'technology'. Not even new technology - I mean, reading for instance. What is their leisure time like if they can't do things like that? Reading, going out, music, sports, internet, pets, shopping .. maybe I sound naive but surely those are the things that bring a little happiness to most of us?
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Post by JoeP on Jul 30, 2015 20:06:53 GMT
Without any "technology" - without any expectation of technology - a community can still have a lot of entertainment and happiness from storytelling, singing and music. And painting and carving. Even practical crafts, making houses and cooking utensils and weapons, could be satisfying.
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Post by Moose on Jul 30, 2015 20:54:07 GMT
um hum. Try it for one month
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Post by JoeP on Jul 30, 2015 22:39:23 GMT
I can't ... how do you forget an expectation of technology?
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Post by Moose on Jul 30, 2015 22:45:21 GMT
well quite
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Post by tangent on Jul 30, 2015 23:18:32 GMT
You're comparing your life with theirs but more realistically, you should compare their lives with that of a typical Amazon peasant farmer, which might not be that great.
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Post by juju on Jul 30, 2015 23:22:09 GMT
Joe's right. We have lost the concept of entertainment without 'things', but songs, storytelling, games, etc kept humans happily entertained for millenia.
Also, as I mentioned earlier, with 'things' people become acquisitional, greedy, jealous and more inclined to structure their societies around heirarchies based on wealth. There's lots of anthropological evidence that the happiest societies are those based on shared wealth within a community. Introduce technology and you'll soon get haves and have nots.
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Post by Kye on Jul 31, 2015 0:08:47 GMT
I still think they have to right to decide for themselves.
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Kate
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Post by Kate on Jul 31, 2015 8:21:21 GMT
Hmm it's a hard one. But I think their way of life should be able to continue undisturbed. After all they've survived for this long without human contact
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2015 21:50:18 GMT
I still think they have to right to decide for themselves. Agreed. Nobody should just approach them and modernize them. It is a decision they should make for themselves.
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Post by tangent on Jul 31, 2015 23:27:04 GMT
Yes, but how do they decide? At the moment, we are deciding for them by leaving them in isolation and the only way they can decide if they want to be 'modernised' is to swallow the blue pill to see what modernising brings. But if they swallow the blue pill there's no going back. They would have made their decision. So I think we have to decide for them and leave them alone.
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Post by Moose on Aug 1, 2015 17:26:43 GMT
Well you can show em what modern life is like. I don't see why there'd be no going back though if they decided to leave the forest. But yes, of course I am ignoring the fact that it's not a question of rainforest or New York .. it's more rainforest or a peasant hut in Peru.
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Post by jayme on Aug 1, 2015 18:46:43 GMT
I suspect that what is actually going on is that they know a lot more about 'modern' people than you think and have already made their choice.
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Post by JoeP on Aug 1, 2015 21:42:44 GMT
Yes, they're all "WhatsApp? How is that different from sending a messenger boy down the river? No thanks"
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Post by spaceflower on Aug 1, 2015 23:10:25 GMT
Indians are often not treated well by the "civilization". They lose their land, they are driven away and killed. Or used as slaves. www.survivalinternational.org/about/amazontribesOnce they are "contacted", they are at the mercy of oil companies, gold diggers etc.
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Post by robert on Aug 2, 2015 13:19:26 GMT
I suspect that what is actually going on is that they know a lot more about 'modern' people than you think and have already made their choice. Maybe they've watched one segment on Fox News and that did it for them.
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Post by jayme on Aug 2, 2015 14:04:53 GMT
I suspect that what is actually going on is that they know a lot more about 'modern' people than you think and have already made their choice. Maybe they've watched one segment on Fox News and that did it for them. That would do it for me!
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Post by Moose on Aug 2, 2015 17:24:52 GMT
Did it for me too. Where do I get a plane to the Amazon and can I take my smart phone?
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Post by jayme on Aug 2, 2015 21:41:19 GMT
Heathrow? Yes.
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