|
Post by juju on Oct 18, 2015 16:57:58 GMT
US Conservatives: 1. What's with religion and guns? As a Brit that's just bizarre. 2. What's with religion and being right wing, full stop? That's pretty much anti much of the bible. 2. How can you be pro military AND pro military action? Surely if you support the military you would be anti war? Do you WANT soldiers to get killed? UK Conservatives: You know those public services like the NHS? What makes you think you can sell them off to the highest bidder? (The clue's in the name. PUBLIC. Hands off.) That's just for starters. Unfortunately I don't actually know any conservatives to ask. And I'm quite genuine.
|
|
|
Post by JoeP on Oct 18, 2015 18:44:39 GMT
I only know about US political attitudes from internet forums. I'm sure that they are fair and complete. 1 and 2. I don't think the kind of religion that the right wing in the US goes for is actually very religious - it's just about conformance and in-group / out-group thinking. I doubt most of the bible thumpers have ever read the bible critically. What they are big on individual liberty as a philosophical aspect of the pioneer spirit - being refugees (or economic migrants, that phrase again) from other parts of the world and (in their view) having fought for what they have, they don't want anyone taking away what they think is important. Like guns. And they don't want any *new* migrants challenging them! 3. They can be both - they have an unwarranted belief in American "exceptionalism". They need to send soldiers into war (and they need loads of money for military technology) but they are so good that not many will get killed. Even though they do, and even since Vietnam. Anybody who actually suffers - war veterans with injuries or ptsd, or poor people - has failed the American dream and the right-wing concept of religion and is therefore somehow less worthy. Charity doesn't even enter their thoughts.
|
|
|
Post by juju on Oct 18, 2015 19:38:16 GMT
Great answers Joe. It's just a shame there's no conservatives to answer, though - I'd really like to see them justifying some of that stuff.
|
|
|
Post by JoeP on Oct 18, 2015 20:53:59 GMT
Who were you thinking of that would give answers on EF?
.. I think Jo may have some facebook friends who qualify ...
|
|
|
Post by Moose on Oct 18, 2015 20:54:51 GMT
I think that there's a difference between political conservatism and religious conservatism, for starters And i am not sure that I'd agree either that US right wing and religious Conservatives have not paid attention to the Bible - I think that's a little unfair. I knew a lot of right wingers on the Wardrobe and whilst I disagreed with both their theology and their politics, most of them were perfectly sincere about both. It is a mindset, though, that it is quite rare to encounter here in the UK (albeit not totally impossible). The guns thing seems to me to be a strange sort of doublethink which is wrapped in vague ideas about liberty and freedom, though I don't quite get how a much higher than the international average rate of gun deaths equates to 'freedom.' All of it seems linked to a hearty dislike of federal government which I suppose is somehow linked both to American history and to its size. I am constantly amazed at how many poor Americans I know who can't get adequate healthcare and yet would defend to the death - probably literally - their right to not have any.
|
|
|
Post by juju on Oct 18, 2015 22:13:29 GMT
Who were you thinking of that would give answers on EF? No one. That's why I said it's a shame I don't know any.
|
|
|
Post by Moose on Oct 18, 2015 22:23:05 GMT
Ican introduce you to some but would be reluctant to invite them here as it would be rather like feeding them to the sharks.
|
|
|
Post by juju on Oct 18, 2015 22:47:58 GMT
I don't think it's unfair to say that being right wing seems to be against what's in the Bible. It's against what's in most religions, really. Most religions state that you should take care of the poor and vulnerable, share what you have, don't be greedy, treat everyone as equal, be kind to strangers, promote peace and don't kill anyone. To me that doesn't sit well with right wing politics. I'd really like someone who thinks like that to explain how it works. ETA: I'm sure there are some very nice individual conservatives. I just think that right wing politics as a whole seems contradictory to most religions.
|
|
|
Post by Moose on Oct 18, 2015 22:58:13 GMT
It's probably worth noting too that many US right wingers will never vote for a Left party as they consider that said left parties support abortion (which they usually do and that's fair enough by me). It can become more of an issue than it perhaps should though I think. Even a right wing government is never going to manage to ban abortion in the US - not gonna happen.
|
|
|
Post by juju on Oct 18, 2015 23:10:04 GMT
These days they seem to be anti abortion AND anti contraception. To me that makes no sense.
But going back to the military thing, I've always wondered why people who support the military can be pro war. If I had a son or daughter in the army I'd be right at the head of any anti war protest.
These days military involvement is anything but clear cut and necessary. People protest against wars precisely because they don't want unnecessary lives lost, on either side. Supporting the military should mean protesting against them being killed for no good reason.
|
|
|
Post by Moose on Oct 19, 2015 1:31:11 GMT
Not all US Christian conservatives are anti contraception. Many are, however, in favour of the abstinence movement which makes no sense at all to me. People have sex. They always have and they always will. The simplest solution to me seems to me to educate young men and women about contraception and make it freely available to them. They don't/won't do this. So you end up with people like Bristol Palin - a person I find almost as objectionable as her mother, since she has apparently set herself us as a campaigner for abstinence herself. A girl who got pregnant as a sixteen year old - regrettable but it happens - by a complete prick (more regrettable but it also happens) who left her for someone else (ibid) and who has since made a VERY handsome living off the fact that she was a teenage mother and is now telling other teenage girls not to do what she did. Hypocrisy, much?
|
|
|
Post by Moose on Oct 19, 2015 1:35:34 GMT
I am prepared to put a call out on facebook to any of my US Christian right friends who want to debate this and are willing to but - the only grounds that I will do this on are the grounds that they don't get torn to shreds if they voice their opinion. This is not about censorship - I will not censor anyone at all and I hope you all know that. But I hope also that people know that anyone of said persuasion who comes to post here will find themselves very much in the minority and I want them to feel that that can express their opinion without feeling that they are going to be verbally massacred for it.
|
|
|
Post by juju on Oct 19, 2015 5:54:07 GMT
No, it doesn't seem fair to invite someone here just to defend their position.
It's odd though, isn't it? Things that seem, well, morally common sense to us are just not to others. And vice versa, I imagine. It's rather like that aesthetic relativism thread - you don't recognise an ideology when you're surrounded by it.
|
|
|
Post by Miisa on Oct 19, 2015 6:02:30 GMT
I know in my atheism circles there are a lot of Americans who were activist evangelical Christians until they went to a bible study or, more commonly, decided to read the bible for themselves. So I suspect the not having actually read the material is true for most of the conservative Christians.
And it seems there is also a lot of rooting for the conservative party simply out of tradition or expectation, without any real idea what the other side represents (beyond being painted as evil). Especially if they flash a religious few key words around they reinforce the idea in the people that they are the party of God and anyone else is essentially the Adversary, and as long as that happens most people won't look at what the party or candidates actually mean to do about the situation of people just like the voters.
|
|
|
Post by JoeP on Oct 19, 2015 8:58:58 GMT
A girl who got pregnant as a sixteen year old - regrettable but it happens - by a complete prick (more regrettable but it also happens) Is there another way?
|
|
|
Post by Moose on Oct 19, 2015 14:56:07 GMT
snort
|
|
|
Post by yooperguy on Dec 13, 2015 2:18:19 GMT
Well, here goes. I consider myself to be a person with conservative leanings. My beliefs are all over the map, I'm pro adoption but I also don't believe its my place to judge what a woman chooses to do in her decision to get an abortion.
Religion and guns are two separate categories, I'm not at all religious but I do own firearms. The only thing they get used for are either hunting or recreation. Most of them are family heirlooms in my possession until I pass them on. When I was growing up often times what my Dad and I shot earlier in the day ended on the dinner table. We lived in a rural area and unbeknownst to me we didn't have a lot of money.
I see no correlation between full stop conservatives and religion, what I do see are people with one foot in insanity. These nuts don't speak for the average conservative.
As far as the military goes, no I don't want to see soldiers die, but sometimes war is a necessity. Life in the United States would be would be a lot different today if we let the Japanese and Germans walk all over us in WW2.
There are no cut and dry answers to your questions, only a huge gray area.
|
|
|
Post by juju on Dec 13, 2015 8:33:43 GMT
Thanks for answering, Yooper. of course you don't speak for all conservatives but it's nice to have that conversation. I'm not against gun ownership per se, I think if you hunt that's fine - lots of farmers here have guns. I've just seen a lot of stuff online from the US that seems to equate gun ownership with 'God given rights' and which tends to come from those who call themselves religious - to me, that's bizarre. I also agree that some wars are a necessary evil. However I am always surprised when I see stuff about 'supporting our troops' when the military action is clearly unnecessary and counterproductive (Iraq, Syria etc) - surely a better way to support the troops would be to not risk their lives in yet more ill thought out campaigns? But war profits some, just not those actually doing the fighting.
|
|
|
Post by tangent on Dec 13, 2015 10:44:26 GMT
Guns and religion
I'd always assumed, sometime in the Reagan era, that the Republican Party twigged that they could appeal to evangelical Christians to win lots of votes and the Christians fell for it. Wasn't it Pat Robinson who invented the idea?
|
|
|
Post by Moose on Dec 13, 2015 20:37:34 GMT
It's ironic really. I can't for a single minute imagine Jesus approving of people having assault rifles in their own homes. I mean, what is the purpose of such a thing other than to kill things/other people?
|
|
|
Post by yooperguy on Dec 13, 2015 23:25:47 GMT
Thanks for answering, Yooper. of course you don't speak for all conservatives but it's nice to have that conversation. I'm not against gun ownership per se, I think if you hunt that's fine - lots of farmers here have guns. I've just seen a lot of stuff online from the US that seems to equate gun ownership with 'God given rights' and which tends to come from those who call themselves religious - to me, that's bizarre. I also agree that some wars are a necessary evil. However I am always surprised when I see stuff about 'supporting our troops' when the military action is clearly unnecessary and counterproductive (Iraq, Syria etc) - surely a better way to support the troops would be to not risk their lives in yet more ill thought out campaigns? But war profits some, just not those actually doing the fighting. The troops deserve our support no matter what the situation. They are only following orders. I may not agree with the situation but it doesn't affect my thoughts about the men and women doing the fighting.
|
|
|
Post by yooperguy on Dec 13, 2015 23:30:03 GMT
It's ironic really. I can't for a single minute imagine Jesus approving of people having assault rifles in their own homes. I mean, what is the purpose of such a thing other than to kill things/other people? There is no reason to own an assault rifle along with armor piercing and hollow point ammunition.
|
|
|
Post by juju on Dec 14, 2015 9:20:45 GMT
The troops deserve our support no matter what the situation. They are only following orders. I may not agree with the situation but it doesn't affect my thoughts about the men and women doing the fighting. But the best way to support those men and women (and their families) is not to risk their lives getting involved in unnecessary and counter productive conflict. That's the best support of all!
|
|
|
Post by yooperguy on Dec 14, 2015 12:35:59 GMT
I agree with you 100% but in the meantime I am still going to support the people doing the fighting. To me the people and the war machine are two different entities.
|
|
|
Post by juju on Dec 14, 2015 17:10:54 GMT
I'm all for supporting soldiers, although I don't know how to best do that except for petitioning governments not to get involved in pointless conflicts. I guess the other way is to vote for the party that makes sure vets get treated well.
|
|
|
Post by yooperguy on Dec 14, 2015 18:45:55 GMT
Dammitt we're starting to come to neutral ground here. I wanted to fight.( there was supposed to be a smiley face here.)
|
|
|
Post by tangent on Dec 14, 2015 23:18:17 GMT
Dammitt we're starting to come to neutral ground here. Maybe you're really a liberal at heart, Youper
|
|
|
Post by yooperguy on Dec 15, 2015 2:47:16 GMT
Dammitt we're starting to come to neutral ground here. Maybe you're really a liberal at heart, Youper *GASP*
|
|
|
Post by Moose on Dec 18, 2015 19:12:13 GMT
It's not Conservatism that I object to specifically just the type of stoopid US conservatism that often seems to come with the US religious right (I am aware that not all religious American conservatives are gun toting Trump supporters of course)
|
|
|
Post by yooperguy on Dec 19, 2015 6:10:31 GMT
These people you're talking about are the vocal fringe groups. They get the press, not us conservatives that aren't vocal.
|
|