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Post by Moose on Mar 21, 2016 23:13:58 GMT
Someone whose name I forget has apparently made himself notorious yesterday by dissing women's tennis .. saying that the women were thankful for men's tennis, though I could not quite work out why. The thing is - okay, women's tennis matches do tend to be a lot shorter than men's and perhaps there is a bit of a letdown factor seeing someone being defeated in straight sets as opposed to watching a five set match. I must say that I find women's tennis more interesting to watch but - might it not be better to make them the same length?
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Post by Alvamiga on Mar 21, 2016 23:29:06 GMT
I think if they were done over the same number of sets they'd still be very different lengths. Women's tennis, as far as I ever see, is about rallies, but men's seems to be more about aces and power plays, leading to shorter points.
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Post by tangent on Mar 21, 2016 23:53:58 GMT
I prefer women's tennis for that reason.
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Post by Alvamiga on Mar 22, 2016 1:32:27 GMT
I only watch women's tennis for that reason!
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Post by tangent on Mar 22, 2016 9:14:31 GMT
I don't know what you mean.
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Post by raspberrybullets on Mar 22, 2016 21:55:14 GMT
He seemed to think that women only get paid as much as they do thanks to the men - because their pay has been alligned to the mens. And then Djokovic went and said something about women and their hormones, and that he thinks men should be earning more. It's so ridiculous, they are happy to support women's equality until it actually happens. Apparently the guy resigned, which is a shame, I had hoped he would be fired.
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Post by Moose on Mar 30, 2016 1:59:15 GMT
Jeremy Clarkson, arch moron, has recently made headlines here for suggesting that the only people who watch women's boxing are 'perverts' and therefore women boxers should not be paid as much as men. Just to clarify - I do not like boxing in any way, shape or form, irrespective of who is throwing the punches. But I do not quite understand why it is apparently acceptable to watch men beat one another up but if you watch women do it you're a pervert
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Post by tangent on Mar 30, 2016 7:13:44 GMT
I'm trying to decide why people like to watch watch men fighting. It's a primitive display of testosterone that will enable the tribe supporting the fighters to kill their enemies. Fair enough. And women can be almost as good fighters as men. But modern society portrays women as gentle, caring folk who couldn't hurt a fly. I think, therefore, we see women's boxing not as a means of preserving our genes in tribal warfare but more in terms of sexual play.
Clarkson used the term sexual deviant, which sounds slightly more acceptable that pervert. Not all sexual deviants are perverts.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2016 20:46:57 GMT
I have to admit that I can't see anything worse in women boxing than men. I don't like either. And I don't get how anyone can see sexual play in women's boxing. They break each other's noses just like the men.
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Post by raspberrybullets on Apr 4, 2016 9:59:06 GMT
I'm trying to decide why people like to watch watch men fighting. It's a primitive display of testosterone that will enable the tribe supporting the fighters to kill their enemies. Fair enough. And women can be almost as good fighters as men. But modern society portrays women as gentle, caring folk who couldn't hurt a fly. I think, therefore, we see women's boxing not as a means of preserving our genes in tribal warfare but more in terms of sexual play. Clarkson used the term sexual deviant, which sounds slightly more acceptable that pervert. Not all sexual deviants are perverts. This is so preposterous to me that I don't even know where to respond! A sexual deviant does not sound any better than a pervert for one! And women fight just as well as men, and there are plenty of audiences out there of both men and women who watch them fight because of the sport and not to perve on them. Really, I can hardly believe that you think like this! You really need to start reading and/or listening to some more feminists - female feminists!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2016 20:32:08 GMT
I have to admit that I have dim memories of jokes on films when girls or women had a fight or were close to a fight and some boys were joking about it hoping for things to get sexy or clothes being taken of. I just remembered it and even though I don't like it at all and don't think it's a good thing, the association between women fighting and something sexual seems to exist or used to exist.
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Post by raspberrybullets on Apr 5, 2016 20:53:05 GMT
Sure it exists, of course it does. Women can hardly to anything without men thinking it's sexual. But professional women atheletes are admired for more than just being sexual objects. And in any case, we must call out such behaviour or it will never change. It's not acceptable to objectify women and not see them as human beings with their own autonomy first and foremost.
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Post by tangent on Apr 6, 2016 0:39:49 GMT
I think you misunderstand what I'm saying, Rasp, and the reasons for saying it. I neither condone nor comply with men who get sexual satisfaction from women's boxing. I am merely explaining what some men are thinking.
Let me first point out how I feel about sexual equality since you bring up the subject. I've been a feminist in the modern sense most of my life. In my teens I felt uncomfortable with my peers' sexist remarks but went along with them. But when I was 21, I got a job in a department where men and women were truly treated as equals - it helped that they were all about the same age as me - and from then on I treated men and women equally at all times. Compared with my peers, I was ahead of my time in relation to sexual equality, sometimes to the bewilderment of people I met. For example, I introduced the idea at my church of women taking on men's roles. And in Pat's maternity clinic I caused some consternation when I shared Richard's upbringing with Pat when the overwhelming ethos at the time was for that to be the sole domain of the woman. I can only say it came naturally to me. I mention this because I feel that being overwhelmingly feminist I can talk about sexism without having to apologise for it. And this means I can talk about men's sexist behaviour in relation to women's boxing without needing to apologise. I neither share their behaviour not condone it but I do understand it. I don't mind if you disagree but it doesn't shake my view that I am not behaving in a sexist manner in what I'm saying.
Fraud introduced the idea of the Id, the Ego and the Superego. The Id belongs to our animal instincts, the Ego controls our behaviour and the Superego controls another person's behaviour.
This is a description of how the Id functions and it doesn't take into account the controlling factor of the Ego. In my opinion, men who display the Id without the controlling function of the Ego are intolerable sexist pigs. I find that behaviour totally unacceptable. Nevertheless, I have to admit that many men, in their unconscious minds, find women's boxing sexually exciting, for reasons I have given above, even though most men control their unconscious minds with their Egos to suppress those feelings. And they do that without realising.
What I think you're objecting to is the surfacing of those primitive sexual feelings into a man's consciousness. When that happens, his Ego is deficient in not controlling his behaviour. At least, that's how I understand Fraud's theory.
I'm sorry you misunderstood my argument. I can only say that because I am so confident in my innate feminism, it never occurred to me that I needed to explain that I don't have those sexual feelings myself.
ETA: Rereading this it may sound a bit pompous but that was not my intention.
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Post by Moose on Apr 23, 2016 0:29:26 GMT
I agree that sexual deviant and pervert are the same thing, as far as I can see. And I don't think you're sexist, Steve, but without meaning to sound horribly patronising I do think that ultimately you are from a different generation to Rasp and I. I don't like watching boxing - either male or female. Just not my thing - watching violence is not entertainment to me. But you sound a bit like Clarkson if you really think that people only like women's boxing because they see it as 'sexual play.' Some people enjoy watching boxing and see it as an art form. I don't. But I don't get why male and female boxing should be regarded differently.
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Post by tangent on Apr 23, 2016 1:05:04 GMT
I agree that sexual deviant and pervert are the same thing, as far as I can see. And I don't think you're sexist, Steve, but without meaning to sound horribly patronising I do think that ultimately you are from a different generation to Rasp and I. I don't like watching boxing - either male or female. Just not my thing - watching violence is not entertainment to me. But you sound a bit like Clarkson if you really think that people only like women's boxing because they see it as 'sexual play.' Some people enjoy watching boxing and see it as an art form. I don't. But I don't get why male and female boxing should be regarded differently. Are you trying to shoot the messenger? Clarkson: "All men who watch female boxing are sexual deviants." Myself: "Some men who watch female boxing are sexual deviants." By all means shoot the men who are sexual deviants but don't shoot the messenger. Is a dominatrix a sexual deviant? (Yes, according to the Urban Dictionary) Is there anything wrong with being a dominatrix? (No, not in my opinion) Is there anything wrong with being a pervert? (Yes, always) So I don't thinks it's right to say that all sexual deviants are perverts.
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Post by Moose on Apr 26, 2016 21:39:55 GMT
I think that's just semantics. To me, the terms mean exactly the same thing. And I don't see why being a dominatrix is deviant.
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Post by raspberrybullets on May 1, 2016 0:08:27 GMT
Also, in the end Steve it doesn't matter what you actually believe if the way you come across is sexist. I understand that you don't necessarily think like that but you are an older white male, so if two females are telling you that you are coming across as sounding sexist, then you perhaps shoud rethink what you are saying rather that arguing with us that you are not being sexist.
I have found myself at times saying or thinking things that I now realise, come from being so intrenched with ideas of patriachy that I'm doing a diservice to my own gender. I try to stop that now or re-evaluate things I think or might say and whether I'm not just falling into what I've always been used to hearing/believing. So I don't think it's just you, tangent, we all do it. But if it is pointed out to you, perhaps stop to think about it and reconsider what you say.
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