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Brexit
Feb 3, 2016 23:03:23 GMT
Post by ProdigalAlan on Feb 3, 2016 23:03:23 GMT
How do the Brit members of the board feel about an exit from the EU? How do other members who live in the EU feel about a possible UK departure?
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Brexit
Feb 3, 2016 23:56:05 GMT
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Post by tangent on Feb 3, 2016 23:56:05 GMT
I want to stay in the EU regardless of the deal David Cameron is trying to make. (And I'm not even sure his deal would be good for us.) Part of the reason is because it will be much better for business if we stay in the EU and part of the reason is because Europe is socially a much more equitable place, on the whole. I shudder at Theresa May's disregard for human rights. And I shudder at what Cameron is trying to do to Britain. My hope is that Europe will act as a brake.
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Brexit
Feb 4, 2016 7:22:30 GMT
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Post by juju on Feb 4, 2016 7:22:30 GMT
Ditto. I'm for staying in.
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Brexit
Feb 4, 2016 12:46:38 GMT
Post by ProdigalAlan on Feb 4, 2016 12:46:38 GMT
I have to confess to being undecided. Until Cameron came back with the results of negotiation I was broadly in favour of staying in the EU. Accepting the concept of paying benefits to people who have not contributed to that benefit system and sending benefits to other countries, again who have not contributed to the benefit system, does not sit easy with me. As a point of principle I believe that I should, by virtue of my vote, have a say over how and where my taxes are spent.
I've had the privilege of working in many EU countries and I'd be very reluctant to turn away from that but the issue of UK sovereignty over our taxes is looming very large.
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Brexit
Feb 4, 2016 13:51:23 GMT
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Post by tangent on Feb 4, 2016 13:51:23 GMT
If in 50 years time we are integrated into a United States of Europe, the general population will be amazed that we ever considered withdrawing from the EU.
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Brexit
Feb 4, 2016 14:15:19 GMT
Post by JoeP on Feb 4, 2016 14:15:19 GMT
The way half the population of the US seems to think the Union was a bad idea and they want to secede?
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Brexit
Feb 4, 2016 15:24:30 GMT
Post by ProdigalAlan on Feb 4, 2016 15:24:30 GMT
If in 50 years time we are integrated into a United States of Europe, the general population will be amazed that we ever considered withdrawing from the EU. Well that's one 'if' on the other hand if the EU continues to have financial crises like Greece etc. the general population will be amazed that we ever considered staying with the EU. You see I'd be very happy with a federation of Europian countries, all paying the same taxation and all providing the same level of minimum wages and social welfare. But that's not what we have, far from it and I don't feel good about EU countries that provide much less support for their citizens having the right to establish how UK tax payers provide that support, particularly when that support is being sent to those self same EU countries that provide much less benefits to their citizens.
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Brexit
Feb 4, 2016 22:39:21 GMT
Post by Moose on Feb 4, 2016 22:39:21 GMT
I am inclined towards staying in but not entirely decided. I've been trying to educate myself a little lately as to the pros and cons of remaining.. the trouble is that it's difficult to find an unbiased site. I hope that, by the time of any referendum, I can feel a little bit more sure. If anyone knows of any good reference sites that are as unbiased as it is possible to be on such an issue then I'd appreciate them. I am aware of the major arguments put forward by both for and against but I do not personally know how much weight to put on each.
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Brexit
Feb 6, 2016 21:44:15 GMT
Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2016 21:44:15 GMT
It might sound silly, but I'm really scared of Britain leaving the EU and that this means Frank and I will be separated because they might throw him out. Sounds extreme, and I guess it wouldn't necessarily happen like that, but I do have these fears.
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Brexit
Feb 6, 2016 22:20:19 GMT
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Post by tangent on Feb 6, 2016 22:20:19 GMT
I don't see how they could possibly throw him out, he's been living in Germany for many years. Does he have dual citizenship?
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Brexit
Feb 6, 2016 22:37:29 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2016 22:37:29 GMT
I don't see how they could possibly throw him out, he's been living in Germany for many years. Does he have dual citizenship? No, he has the ones from Great Britain and New Zealand, but he would have to drop those to get the Germans one. I'don't rather get the British citizenship then. I'm scared that kind of thing could split Frank and me up even when we are narried, so in the long run I would try to get the British citizenship just so can't suddenly be separated. It's something that always makes me very anxious.
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Brexit
Feb 6, 2016 22:47:33 GMT
Post by Moose on Feb 6, 2016 22:47:33 GMT
I don't think either country would throw you out or indeed could. Frank's been there a long time and has a job. I doubt he'd be considered any sort of problem by the German authorities . THere are plenty of people in this country who have spouses from non EU countries.
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Brexit
Feb 6, 2016 23:05:34 GMT
Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2016 23:05:34 GMT
He doesn't have a job at the moment, but I guess you are right. He h's been here for 17 years and has wworked here and paid taxes and I guess they can't just throw all the British people out.
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Brexit
Feb 6, 2016 23:20:44 GMT
Post by Moose on Feb 6, 2016 23:20:44 GMT
Naw won't happen. Personally I think that the referendum results will be to stay in in any case but even if not I don't think it will have any impact on Frank. It will likely affect new people.
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Brexit
Feb 15, 2016 21:32:28 GMT
Post by whollygoats on Feb 15, 2016 21:32:28 GMT
Outsider, here.
I'm not clear on why the UK might want to exit a European Union. Or what that really even means.
I'm assuming that being part of the European community provides trade access which would be denied to a freebooting nation, no?
Do I dectect some resurgent insularity?
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Brexit
Feb 16, 2016 23:45:48 GMT
Post by Moose on Feb 16, 2016 23:45:48 GMT
The main problem I have with the Out brigade is that their main reasons for wanting out seem to be 'stop the nasty immigrants from coming in.' I am not sure that it even works that way though. Apart from anything else, the UK has taken far fewer immigrants than many countries (Finland, Sweden, Hungary etc) that are far smaller in terms of population and apparently we're not going to be taking all that many more. The other thing is that if we leave the EU then none of our European neighbours would have a legal obligation to stop immigrants illegally getting into this country and they might consider that it was not worth their while anymore.
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Brexit
Feb 17, 2016 10:18:56 GMT
Post by ProdigalAlan on Feb 17, 2016 10:18:56 GMT
As I see it the issues are these:
The pro-Europe side believes that, as a trading nation we are stronger trading within a framework of nations all of whom are actively co-operating to promote trade. An example of this would be the European Aerospace Industry. Parts for aircraft are manufactured in a number of countries and the aircraft are marketed worldwide. Further, as a group of small nations we should have the right to free movement within that group of countries and the right to work wherever we can find employment within these countries without the need for all the red tape that work visas entails. There is no controversy with those two aspects. Even UKIP the most vocal anti-EU party wants to retain those two factors.
Where it starts to get a bit tetchy is when we come to issues regarding EU law. Each member of the EU has its own set of laws but the laws of the European Parliament takes final precedence over them. Many of the European lawmakers and administrators are not elected and are not accountable to the voters of the EU. The 'out' campaign believes this to be wrong and in the absence of change wants to exit from the EU.
Then there is the issue of how British tax is spent within the EU. The EU in it's various headquarters in Strasbourg, Brussels etc. is very costly and is totally unaccountable to anyone but itself. Years of reform attempts have proved futile and now the 'out' group say it's time to go.
Then there is the issue of British benefits. This is a thorny one. Currently the UK has one of the best benefits systems in Europe. As things stand anybody from anywhere within the EU can come to the UK and immediately start to claim these benefits. The out campaign believes there should be a time limit of four years before this is the case, so a person would have to pay tax for four years in the UK before being eligible for things like subsidised housing or sickness benefits.
That's just the 'taster' menu.
The 'in' campaign acknowledges all of the above but points out that for all it's faults the UK has thrived and grown since the day it joined the old 'Common Market' in 1973 and that there is nothing to be gained and all to be lost by leaving the EU.
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Brexit
Feb 18, 2016 1:42:27 GMT
Post by Moose on Feb 18, 2016 1:42:27 GMT
There are other countries within the EU that a British person can claim benefits immediately I believe. Nonetheless yes, I can understand why people don't want recently arrived immigrants who have never worked here to be able to claim benefits. I would however, differentiate between people who come here just to claim and people who end up here because their countries are in flames and are utterly desperate. I would like those people to be shown compassion and leniency and, yes, benefits, whilst they rebuild their lives. That said, most of such people are not from EU countries anyway I guess.
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Brexit
Feb 18, 2016 9:53:14 GMT
Post by ProdigalAlan on Feb 18, 2016 9:53:14 GMT
No EU country is 'in flames'. Come on Jo that's the language of the far right.
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Brexit
Feb 18, 2016 19:45:05 GMT
Post by Moose on Feb 18, 2016 19:45:05 GMT
Reread what I said. Especially this bit: I would however, differentiate between people who come here just to claim and people who end up here because their countries are in flames and are utterly desperate. I would like those people to be shown compassion and leniency and, yes, benefits, whilst they rebuild their lives. That said, most of such people are not from EU countries anyway I guess.
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Brexit
Feb 18, 2016 20:34:00 GMT
Post by ProdigalAlan on Feb 18, 2016 20:34:00 GMT
And my point is that no EU citizen comes from circumstances like that.
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Brexit
Feb 18, 2016 20:46:12 GMT
Post by Moose on Feb 18, 2016 20:46:12 GMT
I didn't say that they were. I said that people who come from countries that ARE in those circumstances should be given help here. However, a leading thought for the out people seems to be that genuine refugees are as unwelcome as economic migrants. The average DM reader just does not differentiate.
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Brexit
Feb 18, 2016 21:12:31 GMT
Post by ProdigalAlan on Feb 18, 2016 21:12:31 GMT
I'm sorry but you're fielding a total red herring. The UK's commitment to refugees will not change and is nothing to do with the EU. That is governed by our membership of the UN. There is an issue regarding tax credits and social housing benefits. The UK's benefits are considerably more generous than the majority of EU countries. There is a legitimate debate about the fairness of receiving benefits without having made contributions to that benefits system but that has nothing to do with people claiming asylum. No EU citizen travels anywhere in the EU to claim asylum.
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Brexit
Feb 18, 2016 21:46:11 GMT
Post by Moose on Feb 18, 2016 21:46:11 GMT
We are talking about two different things yes. But UKIP's sales pitch seems to be that they will stop refugees from coming in or at least seriously curtail them. Regards economic migrants from other parts of the EU we're probably not on so much of a different page. I do not mind people coming here to work. I do think that coming here to take advantage of a child tax system is maybe not the best idea in the world.
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Brexit
Feb 23, 2016 22:35:45 GMT
Post by Moose on Feb 23, 2016 22:35:45 GMT
I suspect that Boris has his eye on Cameron's job. I honestly can't see the referendum going to the Out brigade though. They make a lot of noise but I only know one person who would actually vote for them
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Brexit
Feb 24, 2016 11:00:14 GMT
Post by JoeP on Feb 24, 2016 11:00:14 GMT
You suspect? No way, really?
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Brexit
Feb 24, 2016 12:16:54 GMT
via mobile
Post by tangent on Feb 24, 2016 12:16:54 GMT
Laura Kuensberg, BBC'S arch political reporter, was clearly very angry when she announced that Boris had joined the Out campaign, with the consequence that it might affect the fate of the whole country, when it seemed possible or even likely he was only doing so to further his own career.
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Brexit
Feb 24, 2016 12:18:45 GMT
Post by Mari on Feb 24, 2016 12:18:45 GMT
I can't say I really care if the UK leaves or not. Over the years the UK has had special terms and conditions for many things. I feel they're not pulling their weight at all. The UK has been refusing to pay certain taxes, or pay them late after a lot of complaining about it. Honestly, in the Netherlands the UK isn't held in high regard when it comes to participation in the EU. Just the fact that it would actually still be possible for the UK to withdraw from the EU without causing a complete collapse of the economy etc. says it all really.
And about the UK having the best benefit system in Europe... really? With those horrendous cuts, disparaging talk about people actually claiming benefits and the whole ATOS thingy? Let's not even begin about the idea of bedroom tax.
I love the UK, I really do, but sometimes the things I read and hear remind me way too much of "we are Americans so we are the awesomest and thus always right"-talk.
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Brexit
Feb 24, 2016 12:21:01 GMT
via mobile
Post by tangent on Feb 24, 2016 12:21:01 GMT
Sadly, I completely agree, Mari.
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Brexit
Feb 24, 2016 19:03:31 GMT
Post by Moose on Feb 24, 2016 19:03:31 GMT
The DM brigade would have it that the UK pays more taxes and contributes more but I am sceptical. I know we refused to take more Syrians ... loads of countries have taken far more than us
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