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Brexit
Jul 1, 2016 10:10:26 GMT
Post by spaceflower on Jul 1, 2016 10:10:26 GMT
I've never understood the anti dual nationality thing. Just because I give up citizenship of one place doesn't stop me from still having all the ties to it that existed while I also had the passport. And I have never understood the dual nationality thing. Like having your cake and eat it. Or having two spouses. What if the two nations were in war? Which country would you fight for? Would you be seen as a potential traitor (like the Japanese in WW2 in USA)? Once Finland and UK were on different sides (Finland an ally to Nazi Germany against Soviet). Of course, there would not be a problem between EU-countries. EU is said to be a peace project so unthinkable to have a war between EU-countries.
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Brexit
Jul 1, 2016 10:36:08 GMT
Post by juju on Jul 1, 2016 10:36:08 GMT
I didn't know dual nationality wasn't a thing in some countries. I have several friends with dual UK/something else nationalities, so I thought it was the norm.
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Brexit
Jul 1, 2016 12:41:23 GMT
Post by spaceflower on Jul 1, 2016 12:41:23 GMT
Sometimes a person is forced to have dual nationalities. Like the Eritrean journalist Isaak who became a Swedish citizen and went back to Eritrea. He has now been in jail for 15 years without trial, and his relatives don't even know if he lives. None of your busines, the Eritrean government says, he is an Eritrean citizen. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawit_Isaak
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Brexit
Jul 2, 2016 3:52:38 GMT
Post by whollygoats on Jul 2, 2016 3:52:38 GMT
The US government position on 'dual nationality'. I don't know how European national laws interpret 'dual citizenship'. Is EU a nation? If not, then if one is a citizen of an EU nation and also a citizen of the UK, would not one continue as a dual citizen whether the UK leaves the EU or not?
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Brexit
Jul 2, 2016 8:33:51 GMT
via mobile
Post by juju on Jul 2, 2016 8:33:51 GMT
You can have dual UK/anywhere citizenship AFAIK (as long as the other country does it). I have a few friends who are dual UK/Australian, for example. And one is dual UK/Canadian.
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Brexit
Jul 2, 2016 9:16:59 GMT
Post by JoeP on Jul 2, 2016 9:16:59 GMT
The EU is not a nation and you can't be a citizen of the EU itself, only a citizen of a constituent country. If you had dual UK and French citizenship, that would not be affected by the UK leaving the EU. Of course, not many people have bothered with such a thing up till now.
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Brexit
Jul 2, 2016 10:11:59 GMT
Post by spaceflower on Jul 2, 2016 10:11:59 GMT
The US government position on 'dual nationality'. I don't know how European national laws interpret 'dual citizenship'. Is EU a nation? If not, then if one is a citizen of an EU nation and also a citizen of the UK, would not one continue as a dual citizen whether the UK leaves the EU or not? No, of course EU cannot be seen as nation. My point is what happens if the two nations (of which I am a citizen) are in war? And an important aim was to end all wars in Europe. Nations in the same (trade) union would not start war against each other. Therefore no risk of double loyalties. No more wars between Germany and France (or UK and Eire) for instance. If you study European history, it's is all about wars.(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_Europe) All over the world actually, but I hope that we'll have no fullblown wars in Europe any more.
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Brexit
Jul 2, 2016 13:51:27 GMT
Post by whollygoats on Jul 2, 2016 13:51:27 GMT
The US government position on 'dual nationality'. I don't know how European national laws interpret 'dual citizenship'. Is EU a nation? If not, then if one is a citizen of an EU nation and also a citizen of the UK, would not one continue as a dual citizen whether the UK leaves the EU or not? No, of course EU cannot be seen as nation. My point is what happens if the two nations (of which I am a citizen) are in war? Then the host country will probably consider the dual citizens who share citizenship with the hostile nation to be a 'hostile foreign nationals' and have them arrested and interned for the duration of hostilities. I don't think that is quite so difficult to conceive; it's pretty standard procedure in wartime.
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Brexit
Jul 2, 2016 16:15:20 GMT
Post by Miisa on Jul 2, 2016 16:15:20 GMT
If I am a citizen of two countries, then either country will consider me its citizen and might not even know about the other citizenship.
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Brexit
Jul 2, 2016 16:22:51 GMT
Post by spaceflower on Jul 2, 2016 16:22:51 GMT
No, of course EU cannot be seen as nation. My point is what happens if the two nations (of which I am a citizen) are in war? Then the host country will probably consider the dual citizens who share citizenship with the hostile nation to be a 'hostile foreign nationals' and have them arrested and interned for the duration of hostilities. I don't think that is quite so difficult to conceive; it's pretty standard procedure in wartime. So if I moved to Denmark and war broke out between Sweden and Denmark (not likely but there were wars between the countres earlier), then the Danish would have me interned. Or if I were visiting Sweden when the war broke out, then the Swedish would have me interned. Does not sound advantageous with dual citizenship then, more like dual risk. But what if I had given up my old Swedish citizenship, would I still be interned? Is that standard procedure in wartime? I know it happened to Americian citizens of Japenese origin during WW2. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_Americans
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Brexit
Jul 2, 2016 18:03:37 GMT
Post by whollygoats on Jul 2, 2016 18:03:37 GMT
Then the host country will probably consider the dual citizens who share citizenship with the hostile nation to be a 'hostile foreign nationals' and have them arrested and interned for the duration of hostilities. I don't think that is quite so difficult to conceive; it's pretty standard procedure in wartime. So if I moved to Denmark and war broke out between Sweden and Denmark (not likely but there were wars between the countres earlier), then the Danish would have me interned. Or if I were visiting Sweden when the war broke out, then the Swedish would have me interned. Does not sound advantageous with dual citizenship then, more like dual risk. But what if I had given up my old Swedish citizenship, would I still be interned? Is that standard procedure in wartime? I know it happened to Americian citizens of Japenese origin during WW2. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_AmericansYep...It all depends upon the level of xenophobic hysteria which grips the nation in which you live when war is declared. Americans callously and unconstitutionally interned thousands of American citizens, merely because of their heritage...not dual citizenship, mere inheritance. This was only possible because these people were visibly different enough from the majority population. They were a readily recognizable minority. There was a frenzy of racist xenophobia, long simmering, which flared up in to some very ugly results (note, also, that Japanese immigrants were not allowed to naturalize, they had to rely upon their 'natural born' American descendants for property ownership and the like. German and Italian immigrants were granted the ability to naturalize, and, by and large, took it). Significant reparations have been paid out by the federal government to survivors and descendants of Japanese-American internees. Note that in the case of German-Americans, none were interned during the war unless they actually perpetrated hostile acts against the country. There were no multiple concentration camps where we could 'protect' those German-Americans from unfortunate harassment by unsophisticated Americans (after having seized all their property assets outright). Foreign national Germans within US borders were rounded up and interned as per usual wartime procedures. I don't know how Sweden treats it, but the US State Department seems to put some consideration as to whether the individual citizen with the dual citizenship came by that status by consciously seeking it, or having it granted because of circumstances out of their power, like being born in to the circumstance. If a US citizen knowingly takes citizenship in another country, they are assumed to have given up their US citizenship. Any immigrant who naturalizes under the law in the US is assumed to no longer be a citizen of any other country than the US. They are assumed to have traded one nationality for another, their new nation, the USA.
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Brexit
Jul 2, 2016 18:14:53 GMT
Post by whollygoats on Jul 2, 2016 18:14:53 GMT
Say...spaceflower?
What is the largest ethnic minority in Sweden? Is it the Turks? Or some other recent immigrant group?
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Brexit
Jul 2, 2016 18:51:19 GMT
Post by spaceflower on Jul 2, 2016 18:51:19 GMT
It used to be the Finns. Finland was once part of Sweden (the eastern part) until Russia took it 1809. There have also been many Finnish immigrants to Sweden after the war (ww2). There are five official minorities in Sweden with their own languages: Finnish, Sami, Romani, Yiddish, and Meänkieli (Tornedal Finnish)
Maybe the Arabic is now the biggest minority language (refugees from Irak, Syria etc). Though the Arabs are not an official minority, since they have not lived long enough in Sweden.
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Brexit
Jul 2, 2016 19:37:36 GMT
Post by Miisa on Jul 2, 2016 19:37:36 GMT
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Brexit
Jul 2, 2016 19:52:47 GMT
Post by JoeP on Jul 2, 2016 19:52:47 GMT
Finnish, Sami, Romani, Yiddish, and Meänkieli (Tornedal Finnish) To deviate from the original subject slightly, is there any independence movement for Sapmi? The Sami people span Norway, Sweden, Finland and Russia, much as the Kurds span Turkey, Syria, Iraq and I think some other countries.
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Brexit
Jul 2, 2016 20:01:06 GMT
Post by Miisa on Jul 2, 2016 20:01:06 GMT
Not that I have heard of, they seem pretty content with their rights and status in the countries they live in.
But then very few people speak Sami as a first language, AFAIK fewer people in Finland have Sami as a first language than, say, Urdu or Bengali. Yet there are Sami news on TV and it is taught in most schools as an elective further North.
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Brexit
Jul 2, 2016 20:17:23 GMT
Post by whollygoats on Jul 2, 2016 20:17:23 GMT
It used to be the Finns. Finland was once part of Sweden (the eastern part) until Russia took it 1809. There have also been many Finnish immigrants to Sweden after the war (ww2). There are five official minorities in Sweden with their own languages: Finnish, Sami, Romani, Yiddish, and Meänkieli (Tornedal Finnish) Maybe the Arabic is now the biggest minority language (refugees from Irak, Syria etc). Though the Arabs are not an official minority, since they have not lived long enough in Sweden. Okay...If you saw a Finn on the streets of Stockholm, would you know they were a Finn? Then, same question for each of the other five, plus the one newer one.
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Brexit
Jul 2, 2016 20:37:53 GMT
Post by JoeP on Jul 2, 2016 20:37:53 GMT
I attempt to distinguish Swedish-speaking Finns from Finnish-speaking Finns on the streets. I don't think Miisa is very impressed with my success rate.
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Brexit
Jul 2, 2016 22:16:07 GMT
Post by spaceflower on Jul 2, 2016 22:16:07 GMT
It used to be the Finns. Finland was once part of Sweden (the eastern part) until Russia took it 1809. There have also been many Finnish immigrants to Sweden after the war (ww2). There are five official minorities in Sweden with their own languages: Finnish, Sami, Romani, Yiddish, and Meänkieli (Tornedal Finnish) Maybe the Arabic is now the biggest minority language (refugees from Irak, Syria etc). Though the Arabs are not an official minority, since they have not lived long enough in Sweden. Okay...If you saw a Finn on the streets of Stockholm, would you know they were a Finn? Then, same question for each of the other five, plus the one newer one. I would not recognize a Finn, a Sami or a Jew on the street. Though I recognize the Finnish language. Sami sounds similar to Finnish but I don't think it is spoken outside of Lappland. And on TV. Roma people, at least the Finnish Roma are very recognizable b/c of the women's clothes. An Arab would be darker and look more "foreign" though I'm not sure I would distinguish from a Turk or a Persian etc. Incidentally I think Finns look more Nordic than Swedes. They are often blond. I have a dark-haired cousin and everybody speculates, does she have Walloon heritage? (Might as well be Roma heritage, but for some reason nobody assumes that. Walloon roots has higher status.)
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Brexit
Jul 3, 2016 7:40:50 GMT
Post by Miisa on Jul 3, 2016 7:40:50 GMT
Well, you cannot tell anyone's *nationality* just by looking at them. But I assume Sweden has the same registry of all residents Finland does which has details like that.
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Brexit
Jul 3, 2016 10:03:08 GMT
Post by JoeP on Jul 3, 2016 10:03:08 GMT
Well, you cannot tell anyone's *nationality* just by looking at them. No. Although plenty of people would like that to be the case
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Brexit
Jul 3, 2016 17:44:43 GMT
Post by Moose on Jul 3, 2016 17:44:43 GMT
I think you can. I can generally recognise German people, or French or Scandinavian.
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Brexit
Jul 3, 2016 18:13:22 GMT
Post by whollygoats on Jul 3, 2016 18:13:22 GMT
Most Europeans look pretty much like most North Americans.
Here, Hispanic peoples can be distinguished, but it is those who have a significant admixture of native heredity. East Asians are usually distinct because of their hair coloring and epicanthic eye folds, while west and south Asians have darker skin tones. Dark skin tones are associated with those of African, native Australian, some Dravidian, and some Pacific Islanders, but the bulk are the descendants of Africans brought to the hemisphere as slaves. These are the minorities in the US.
We cannot readily distinguish Jews, Italians, Sicilians, Bosnians, Andorrans, Greeks, Turks, or almost any European heritage from the majority population of 'white' descendants of European refugees and emigrants, but these minorities vary from the majority population in distinct and readily apparent ways. The next step from visual distinction is linguistic, and, if they are dubious in presence at all, then opening their mouth could easily condemn them. They all too easily become "the Other" to a small sector of discontents among the majority population and thereby targeted for demonization.
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Brexit
Jul 3, 2016 19:35:55 GMT
Post by spaceflower on Jul 3, 2016 19:35:55 GMT
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Brexit
Jul 3, 2016 20:46:43 GMT
Post by Moose on Jul 3, 2016 20:46:43 GMT
It's getting really bad here . Brexit really has brought out the worst in a lot of people - they seem to think that they have carte blanche to make racist remarks.
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Brexit
Jul 3, 2016 21:16:48 GMT
Post by Miisa on Jul 3, 2016 21:16:48 GMT
I sound like a foreigner, or at least non-native, in every language I speak. I may look Finnish, but I looked the same when I was not. I do not presume that someone who "looks" foreign is foreign, and I have met people with recent African ancestry who were born here or adopted in infancy and thus are actually a lot more Finnish than I am. And I really really honestly do not understand race. Nationality I understand, that is clear and defined. Race is not. It is just a bunch of randomly assigned genes you inherited from ancestors who might differ a lot from each other, producing rather fuzzily defined or differentiated phenotypes and then people are expected to be assigned slots on a sliding scale based on that? It is an artificial social construct based on minor regional difference that we are supposed to pretend is something more.
But I'm not allowed to say that and apparently it is all obvious to everyone else. Gotta let people have their pigeon holes or something like that.
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Brexit
Jul 3, 2016 21:41:43 GMT
Post by JoeP on Jul 3, 2016 21:41:43 GMT
Some people will use any difference to identify people as "other" and put them down ... in case they put you down first (the stealing our jobs, stealing our benefits, stealing our women logic).
If it's not skin colour, it's language or dialect or accent. If it's not that it's hair length or tattoos or piercings or style of dress. If it's not that, well Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland who looked, sounded and dressed the same still killed each other.
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Brexit
Jul 3, 2016 21:45:08 GMT
Post by JoeP on Jul 3, 2016 21:45:08 GMT
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Brexit
Jul 4, 2016 19:45:23 GMT
Post by Moose on Jul 4, 2016 19:45:23 GMT
Did you see the meme with Farage having his lips pinned?
I think by recognising Germans or Scandinavians etc it's more to do with non physical things - dress style, hair style, glasses style or something. It's indefinable.
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Brexit
Jul 4, 2016 20:36:12 GMT
Post by whollygoats on Jul 4, 2016 20:36:12 GMT
Some people will use any difference to identify people as "other" and put them down ... in case they put you down first (the stealing our jobs, stealing our benefits, stealing our women logic). If it's not skin colour, it's language or dialect or accent. If it's not that it's hair length or tattoos or piercings or style of dress. If it's not that, well Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland who looked, sounded and dressed the same still killed each other. Yep. In the absence of an 'other', one will be created.
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