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So, Jo
May 29, 2016 0:40:25 GMT
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Post by juju on May 29, 2016 0:40:25 GMT
Sorry, another Trump thread.
A question for Jo, or anyone else who might know. You have religious conservative friends in the US - what do they make of Trump?
I'm guessing they were originally backing Cruz - will they now go for Trump despite his colourful past and views? Trump might be a lot of things, but he doesn't strike me as particularly led by religious conviction.
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So, Jo
May 29, 2016 15:34:56 GMT
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Post by tangent on May 29, 2016 15:34:56 GMT
Trump is a Catholic but his theology is said to be poor. He doesn't need forgiveness for his sins, he just needs to take communion. For this reason alone, my two staunchly Catholic republican friends despair of his candidacy. I pointed out that many people believe most sins, such as murder and theft, are rare and they therefore rarely need forgiveness. But I don't think they understood the argument and consider Trump (and possibly myself) to be beyond the pale.
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So, Jo
May 29, 2016 16:03:59 GMT
Post by juju on May 29, 2016 16:03:59 GMT
But the million dollar question is, will they vote for him? Can they in all conscience vote for someone like him, even though he is the only Republican choice? I've never quite grasped the Christian = Republican thing myself, but I don't get the impression that Trump has particularly strong convictions about issues like abortion, unless there's votes in it.
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So, Jo
May 29, 2016 17:57:35 GMT
Post by Moose on May 29, 2016 17:57:35 GMT
A lot of my religious right friends loathe him... though I do not know if they loathe him enough to vote for Hilary. Yes, I guess that most were hoping for Cruz (I must admit I would not have fancied him as Pres either)
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So, Jo
May 29, 2016 18:16:29 GMT
Post by juju on May 29, 2016 18:16:29 GMT
A lot of my religious right friends loathe him... though I do not know if they loathe him enough to vote for Hilary. Yes, I guess that most were hoping for Cruz (I must admit I would not have fancied him as Pres either) Can you ask them?
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So, Jo
May 29, 2016 20:21:07 GMT
Post by tangent on May 29, 2016 20:21:07 GMT
I'm not sure at this stage they are likely to commit themselves especially since they may change their minds in five months time.
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So, Jo
Jun 8, 2016 5:41:03 GMT
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Post by Christy on Jun 8, 2016 5:41:03 GMT
I know I count as religious. I don't know if I count as conservative (I'm happy to answer questions if it matters enough that you want to see if that answer can be figured out). My voter registration says "unaffiliated" and I like it that way. I voted Republican today (district representative).
I don't like any of the candidates. I think Hillary is too unstable to be in office. I think I don't want to be represented around the world by Trump. Would I rather be alarmed by an unstable president, or bear a president that that gives away racist sound bites as if they're party favors?
At this particular point, I would lean towards sound bite man, but can't declare support. That would imply I agreed with the sound bites. It just *seems* to be slightly less horrific than the alternative.
Whatever happened to the good old days when the only choice to make between candidates was their politics?
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So, Jo
Jun 8, 2016 18:38:53 GMT
Post by Moose on Jun 8, 2016 18:38:53 GMT
I think a much better system would be that people could vote for any candidate that they liked and the one with the most votes got it ..
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So, Jo
Jun 8, 2016 20:14:00 GMT
Post by tangent on Jun 8, 2016 20:14:00 GMT
You can do that in the States. If the candidate isn't mentioned on the ballot form, you can write in their name and put a cross against it. See write-in candidate. However, Presidents Hoover, Roosevelt, Eisenhower, Nixon and Kennedy all won primaries as write-in candidates. See historical successes. Well, it is the States, after all.
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So, Jo
Jun 9, 2016 14:55:56 GMT
Post by Sarah W. on Jun 9, 2016 14:55:56 GMT
This is the first I've heard of that and can't find anything online to back it up. His principles fly in the face of Catholic theology and social teaching and I don't know any principled Catholics who actually support him, though I know some who think he might be the lesser of two evils. Personally, I loathe the man. I'm not fond of Hillary either, but if I had to vote for one of them I'd vote for her. I'll probably write in or just skip that bit when I vote. I know my state won't go Trump so my vote is immaterial.
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So, Jo
Jun 9, 2016 16:30:18 GMT
Post by spaceflower on Jun 9, 2016 16:30:18 GMT
I know I count as religious. I don't know if I count as conservative (I'm happy to answer questions if it matters enough that you want to see if that answer can be figured out). My voter registration says "unaffiliated" and I like it that way. I voted Republican today (district representative). I don't like any of the candidates. I think Hillary is too unstable to be in office. I think I don't want to be represented around the world by Trump. Would I rather be alarmed by an unstable president, or bear a president that that gives away racist sound bites as if they're party favors? At this particular point, I would lean towards sound bite man, but can't declare support. That would imply I agreed with the sound bites. It just *seems* to be slightly less horrific than the alternative. Whatever happened to the good old days when the only choice to make between candidates was their politics? Well, I assume that Clinton and Trump have different politics. But why do you think Hillary Clinton is "unstable"? I thought the main objection is that she belongs to the "old establishment". Trump imo sound totally unpredictable and therefore dangerous. I can't understand how any woman can vote for Trump: "If Hillary Clinton can't satisfy her husband, what makes her think she can she satisfy America?" www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3043861/Claim-Hillary-Clinton-t-satisfy-husband-winds-Donald-Trump-s-Twitter-account-staffer-retweets-it.htmlThis is wrong on so many levels. Does not sound religious either. As if a man is unfaithful then it is his wife's fault.
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So, Jo
Jun 9, 2016 16:37:56 GMT
Post by Sarah W. on Jun 9, 2016 16:37:56 GMT
I agree that Trump is the loose cannon of the two.
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So, Jo
Jun 9, 2016 20:57:27 GMT
Post by tangent on Jun 9, 2016 20:57:27 GMT
This is the first I've heard of that and can't find anything online to back it up. Yes, I was mistaken. I had a discussion on Facebook with two Catholic friends about his theology and I assumed wrongly that he was also a Catholic, sorry. His principles fly in the face of Catholic theology and social teaching and I don't know any principled Catholics who actually support him, though I know some who think he might be the lesser of two evils. Trump has said that although he participates in Holy Communion, he has not asked God for forgiveness for his sins. He stated, "I think if I do something wrong, I think, I just try and make it right. I don't bring God into that picture." ( Wikipedia) I had a brief but interesting discussion about whether his theology meant that he couldn't be a Christian. I maintained that Jesus wants us to repent of our sins and that that is an essential part of being a Christian. But mistakenly thinking we don't need forgiveness doesn't in itself bar us from being a Christian. (If we repent, we are forgiven whether or not we ask for it.) I think that did my Facebook friend's head in.
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So, Jo
Jun 9, 2016 23:07:22 GMT
Post by Moose on Jun 9, 2016 23:07:22 GMT
Surely there are other things that don't make Trump Christian than whether he asks forgiveness of his sins...
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So, Jo
Jun 10, 2016 17:07:22 GMT
via mobile
Post by tangent on Jun 10, 2016 17:07:22 GMT
No. If he believes in Jesus and repents of his sins, there are no other reasons why he might not be a Christian (imo).
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So, Jo
Jun 13, 2016 7:15:58 GMT
via mobile
Post by Mari on Jun 13, 2016 7:15:58 GMT
Thing is though, that he seems to think inciting racism and fear and things like name-calling are perfectly alright and not a sin/wrongdoing at all.
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So, Jo
Jun 16, 2016 17:54:16 GMT
Post by Moose on Jun 16, 2016 17:54:16 GMT
Well I wish he'd get on with it, Steve . Back to Juju's question I've been talking with some more Christian right wingers recently. They say that they will not vote for Hilary but they do not wish to vote for Trump and may abstain altogether.
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So, Jo
Jun 16, 2016 23:43:25 GMT
Post by tangent on Jun 16, 2016 23:43:25 GMT
It's highly likely the people you have been talking to have thought about it. They probably aren't typical voters. Thing is though, that he seems to think inciting racism and fear and things like name-calling are perfectly alright and not a sin/wrongdoing at all. True, but not knowing what is sinful doesn't bar us from God's grace.
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So, Jo
Jun 30, 2016 3:33:42 GMT
Post by whollygoats on Jun 30, 2016 3:33:42 GMT
Trump claims to be a Presbyterian. I don't see it and always considered him to be a devotee of Mammon.
I honestly don't see what any devout Christian might see in Trump, with his three divorces, open adultry, and dubious faith. The thing is, my unson's inlaws, devout evangelicals who've done mission work and are hardcore blue collar conservatives, have voiced open support for Trump. And their adult adopted daughter is Asian/Indian mix from Peru, and her adopted son is from Nigeria. They hate the Clintons so much, they would openly and actively support a raving xenophobic racist hate-monger and unrepentant adulterer and fornicating sinner who has absolutely no sympathy for their religious sensibilities.
It boggles me. We haven't met face to face since the campaign started. I don't think it is likely, though I'm headed that way at the end of July.
I suspect that most of the faithful will not go to the polls at all, come the general election in November. Many will cast their votes for nonviable candidates. This is a result with which I could live.
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So, Jo
Jun 30, 2016 9:18:07 GMT
Post by spaceflower on Jun 30, 2016 9:18:07 GMT
I really don't understand why people hate Hillary Clinton so much. What has she done that is so terrible that they prefer Trump? Is it just that she is one of the "establishment" which irks people? Though I can see that people who have always voted for the Republicans don't see any Democrat as an option. But it is the hatred I don't understand.
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So, Jo
Jun 30, 2016 13:46:29 GMT
Post by whollygoats on Jun 30, 2016 13:46:29 GMT
I really don't understand why people hate Hillary Clinton so much. What has she done that is so terrible that they prefer Trump? Is it just that she is one of the "establishment" which irks people? Though I can see that people who have always voted for the Republicans don't see any Democrat as an option. But it is the hatred I don't understand. Now that is a question I don't think I can answer. I know why I dislike Hillabeans. It's her policy positions...or, those which she is willing to make explicit. I see her as Mr. Bill's golem. Mr. Bill will be at Hillabeans' elbow through her entire reign; her policy will not vary in any significant way from what Mr. Bill would have reimplemented had he been able to return to the White House. All of the raft of dubious public policies he is complicit as putting in to place, and which are disenfranchising masses of middle-class Americans and feeding the kleptonomic plutocrats and their endless war machine, will be returned to power with her. I fully expect a Hillabeans administration to be a repeat of Mr. Bill's administration and the whole sad show will go on. I don't know why anybody would support Trump, as he promises only to be much, much worse. Hillabeans IS the 'lesser evil'. Mind you, lesser evil is still evil, and lesser evil piled on lesser evil for generations has the real possibility of morphing in to greater evil. I tend to think it is time to disenfranchise the two major political parties. And disconnect the lobbyists' tendrils which ensnare our representatives in Congress.
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So, Jo
Jul 6, 2016 16:38:25 GMT
Post by tangent on Jul 6, 2016 16:38:25 GMT
I suspect most of the hatred of Hillary Clinton is being engineered in the same way that hatred of Obama was engineered. She's a woman which makes it easy.
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So, Jo
Jul 6, 2016 16:49:19 GMT
Post by whollygoats on Jul 6, 2016 16:49:19 GMT
I suspect most of the hatred of Hillary Clinton is being engineered in the same way that hatred of Obama was engineered. She's a woman which makes it easy. Perhaps. I don't know about 'most', though. From my perspective, much of the resentment is not 'engineered' at all, but a direct result of her policy positions, actions, and her own words. Take the whole imbroglio over her glowing comments about Henry Kissinger. Considering her base, that was just forking stoopid. Kissinger is an industrial-grade war criminal; he should be on trial at Den Haag....yet, Hillabeans is giving him glowing kudos!
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Post by tangent on Jul 6, 2016 16:53:27 GMT
But, but the general public can't remember further back than six months ago. They don't know who Kissinger is let alone why he was a war criminal.
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So, Jo
Jul 6, 2016 17:35:31 GMT
Post by whollygoats on Jul 6, 2016 17:35:31 GMT
But, but the general public can't remember further back than six months ago. They don't know who Kissinger is let alone why he was a war criminal. Um...Much of the 'general public' doesn't tend to vote (% of registered voters who actually go to the polls has run 50-55% since the Nixon administration). Those of her base who do vote, and vote regularly, are educated. Most educated Americans can clearly and easily equate Kissinger with Nixon and the secret extension of intensive bombing to Cambodia and Laos that extended the Vietnamese War and created the Khmer Rouge and the 'Killing Fields' of Kampuchea. It was a forking stoopid move on her part.
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Post by whollygoats on Jul 6, 2016 18:23:39 GMT
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