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Post by juju on Jun 24, 2016 18:31:58 GMT
What a f***ing shambles.
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Post by Moose on Jun 24, 2016 19:20:06 GMT
Oooh I hate being fair to Farage
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Post by JoeP on Jun 24, 2016 20:00:37 GMT
Oooh I hate being fair to Farage In the interests of balance ... go to Google Translate and translate the Malay word 'faraj' into English: like this: translate.google.co.uk/#ms/en/faraj
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Post by tangent on Jun 24, 2016 20:21:15 GMT
You could have warned us about that, Joe
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Post by Kye on Jun 24, 2016 21:09:38 GMT
A vagina needs a warning?
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Post by JoeP on Jun 24, 2016 21:11:58 GMT
Sorry ... "NSFS"
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Post by Moose on Jun 24, 2016 23:16:44 GMT
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Post by Moose on Jun 24, 2016 23:17:15 GMT
It's all too shocking ..
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Post by kingedmund on Jun 25, 2016 5:11:36 GMT
I really need to get in tune with what this really is and really means!
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Post by kingedmund on Jun 25, 2016 5:30:05 GMT
Okay. I have got some idea. No one is talking about it here, but then again I'm consumed with my family's demise at the moment so maybe I had had time to focus!
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Post by raspberrybullets on Jun 25, 2016 7:22:27 GMT
Well to be fair, I don't think most people know what it all really means. Aside from that the UK is no longer going to be part of the EU and all that entails.
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Post by raspberrybullets on Jun 25, 2016 7:22:53 GMT
Also, I was expecting atleast a picture of a vagina!
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Post by tangent on Jun 25, 2016 8:44:11 GMT
Do you need a picture? You know what one looks like.
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Post by raspberrybullets on Jun 25, 2016 10:15:53 GMT
You built up my expectations with your shock. I was expecting more than just the word vagina.
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Post by JoeP on Jun 25, 2016 11:53:33 GMT
I really need to get in tune with what this really is and really means! No, I'm pretty sure you don't, ke. Neither Farage nor faraj!
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Post by spaceflower on Jun 25, 2016 15:33:25 GMT
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Post by ProdigalAlan on Jun 25, 2016 20:37:47 GMT
Oh yeah right. A poll of less than 5000 proves absolutely nothing! Furthermore one year ago all the polls got the general election result in the UK completely wrong.
The reasons why people voted the way they did are not that simplistic. My youngest son voted to leave and I voted to stay. Both of us were right to vote the way we did based on the circumstances we find ourselves in. Both of us voted from a sense of enlightened self interest.
The EU itself has to take a very large portion of any blame that may be handed out. All member states have acknowledged the need for reform and no reform has been forthcoming.
If you are looking to blame anyone, blame an EU that moves it's parliament every six months at a cost of billions. Blame a single currency system that was launched in contravention of its own rules and maintained to the ultimate detriment of its own members, so that the EU could save face. Blame an over rigid system that wouldn't even allow the UK to scrap the VAT on female hygiene products when everyone in the UK wanted to scrap the tax on tampons.
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Post by JoeP on Jun 25, 2016 21:25:48 GMT
Blame an over rigid system that wouldn't even allow the UK to scrap the VAT on female hygiene products when everyone in the UK wanted to scrap the tax on tampons. It's my opinion that the EU has issued some stupid and harmful rules like this, but some beneficial ones as well. As a small example, I would not have been able to bring my cat over from South Africa (without a 6 month quarantine which I do not think she would have survived) until the EU forced harmonisation from the beginning of 2012. It's also my opinion that successive UK governments have created laws far more stupid, harmful and divisive. Underfunding the NHS was done by our governments, not the EU. Demoralising teachers was our governments, not the EU. The bedroom tax and benefits sanctions and the demonisation of the poor and disabled - our government, not the EU. The Iraq war - at least equally to blame. Counterexamples? Is this unbalanced?
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Post by Moose on Jun 26, 2016 1:43:11 GMT
Were the EU responsible for the relaxation of quarantine laws? I can't be arsed - it's three am - to look it up but I thought that that one happened comparatively recently (well last fifteen years at least, which is starting to seem recent to me).
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Post by Moose on Jun 26, 2016 1:44:19 GMT
As regards tampons, I think the tax was stupid - as, you know, a tampon user- but at the same time I don't think that it was worth scrapping an entire system over
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Post by juju on Jun 26, 2016 7:17:25 GMT
I'm genuinely worried for our future and especially for my children's future. I work in Higher Ed which receives a massive amount of funding from the EU. I live in an rural area that's very poor and only survives on EU funding. Staggeringly it voted out. I genuinely believe people didn't know what they were voting for. Of course not all leave voters did so for the same reasons but a large proportion will have done so because they are the disaffected working class who have been convinced that the problem is immigrants, stealing jobs (how does one 'steal' a job? Recruitment is the decision of the boss, not the candidate) and draining our benefits and NHS. Once again they have been fooled into looking in the wrong direction. Furthermore, there has been a sharp increase in reports of racist attacks, including on British Muslims, who have been told that 'we've just voted out so you have to go home!' People seriously thought that voting leave would mean an end to immigration full stop, and that any 'foreigners' (from anywhere) will now be kicked out. I'm genuinely grieving. I thought we were an outward looking country but it suddenly feels insular, mean and inward looking. Last century saw where a rise in nationalism coupled with economic insecurity can lead. It's not seeming so outlandish anymore. And with the very real threat of Scotland going, we will be greatly diminished. And who will lead us through this? A government who has shown no competence and how little they care about the poor and working class, who are keen to sell off the NHS, and who, without recourse to the EU, can start to strip away our rights. I want to be wrong. I want it to be OK. But I'm not hopeful.
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Post by JoeP on Jun 26, 2016 7:32:04 GMT
Were the EU responsible for the relaxation of quarantine laws? I can't be arsed - it's three am - to look it up but I thought that that one happened comparatively recently (well last fifteen years at least, which is starting to seem recent to me). It happened in the last 5 years even! It may not be true that the EU forced on the UK with protests, but it was definitely "EU harmonisation": New rules mean it will be easier and cheaper to travel abroad with pets - Press releases - GOV.UK
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Post by ProdigalAlan on Jun 26, 2016 10:19:11 GMT
I genuinely believe people didn't know what they were voting for. Of course not all leave voters did so for the same reasons but a large proportion will have done so because they are the disaffected working class who have been convinced that the problem is immigrants, stealing jobs (how does one 'steal' a job? Recruitment is the decision of the boss, not the candidate) That's easy to answer. Construction contracts in the East Midlands were going to an Italian company. They only recruited in Italy. The contracts paid workers less than the UK minimum wage. You could only apply for the job in Italy and in Italian. UK construction workers were frozen out. Similarly, and this was one of the major points my son put to me, EU HGV drivers from Eastern Europe were driving on UK roads in flagrant disregard of all safe working practices both regarding the vehicles and working hours rules. They were both unfairly undercutting UK contracts and potentially endangering other UK road users. He lost contracts to Hungarian and Romanian haulage companies who could bid lower because they paid wages lower than the UK minimum and using vehicles that did not comply with UK vehicle regulations and working hours that his company would have been taken to court for. At the end of last year he closed his small haulage yard in Hertfordshire and relocated back to the Welsh valleys. For the drivers he had to lay off in Hertfordshire it was definitely a case of losing their jobs to EU workers. To comply with safe working practices he tendered at prices considerably higher than those presented by other EU countries who didn't have to worry about issues like length of hours spent at the wheel or vehicle maintenance contracts.
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Post by juju on Jun 26, 2016 11:42:16 GMT
Hmmm. So we'll now have a return to 'British jobs for British workers', all fairly paid with rights intact? I'm highly sceptical of that. It's a competitive market. We'll continue outsourcing and employing those who will work cheaply, to make as much profit as possible. That's capitalism.
Case in point: there's a meat factory a few miles from here which was in the paper several years ago complaining that it could not recruit local workers. Now, the overwhelming majority of its staff come from Eastern Europe and Malaysia. Why? Possibily because they are less fussy about working conditions, possibly because their living arrangements (most are single men) mean they don't have to try and make extortionate rent or mortgage payments.
I really, genuinely want someone to convince me that Brexit is a good thing. That it will all be OK. I really want to think that.
But I'm curious, Alan. Why did you vote in?
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Post by ProdigalAlan on Jun 26, 2016 11:55:44 GMT
Years and years of working all over Europe. Added to an EU funded post grad at Nottingham Uni.
I made real money thanks to my ability to work anywhere in Europe. I want those opportunities for my grandsprogs.
I got such a socking great bonus from my first contact in Frankfurt that it really made a difference to Lynne and my lifestyles. The final bonus I got in France meant that, along with my redundancy money, I could retire at 60. I loved every minute I worked in mainland Europe. I wanted my grandsprogs to have that experience.
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Post by ProdigalAlan on Jun 26, 2016 12:05:12 GMT
I also freely admit that I believe in nothing less than a European federal state. That does not make me popular. As far as I can see the EU can only function under one currency, with one set of tax rules and one set of employment laws, one set of health and social care laws.
That's never going to be acceptable but it's the only possible solution if we are going to have an open border policy. It also has to function on a majority vote basis with no national veto and that vote has to be per person within the EU not on a per nation basis.
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Post by juju on Jun 26, 2016 12:29:57 GMT
So no good news then?
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Post by JoeP on Jun 26, 2016 12:38:36 GMT
Apart from Cameron being out, and the remote possibility of the EU reforming to become more representative and future UK governments becoming more inclusive and fair, I can't think of anything good.
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Post by JoeP on Jun 26, 2016 12:39:32 GMT
The best outcome I can see is only a small disaster over the next 2-3 years and back to a similar status quo after that.
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Post by juju on Jun 26, 2016 12:51:13 GMT
I made real money thanks to my ability to work anywhere in Europe. I want those opportunities for my grandsprogs. My middle son is studying a degree in Modern European Languages (right now he's actually on his way to St Petersburg for a month ). He's always felt European, and indeed he entered 'European' under nationality on the last census form. He fully intended to take up opportunities to live and work abroad as soon as he could. He is heartbroken. I am heartbroken for him.
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