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Post by Moose on Jun 28, 2016 21:00:46 GMT
I do, for the record, know some thoughtful outers - people who I know are not xenophobic and voted because they genuinely believed that the economy will be better after a Brexit. I don't agree (though I am not economist) but I can respect these people. I cannot, however, respect the people that I know who freely admitted that a large reason for voting out was to curb immigration. One of my sisters is one such.
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Post by JoeP on Jun 28, 2016 21:21:08 GMT
Not talking about it seems vital for sanity.
On the other hand, part of me wants this to go all the way immediately. Some of the stupids are saying "it was a vote, that's how democracy works, now you HAVE to accept it" (and also, Scotland voted to stay in the UK, they can't have another vote, that's not how democracy works; except it is, we keep on voting for a government every 5 years). So now I want article 50 signed this week, forget the 2 year negotiation period, drop all EU regulations immediately and block all immigration immediately, and then see what happens. Unless the country actually gives it a chance, the outers will keep on saying "but it will be good, you are just continuing Project Fear".
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Post by JoeP on Jun 28, 2016 21:28:10 GMT
I do, for the record, know some thoughtful outers - people who I know are not xenophobic and voted because they genuinely believed that the economy will be better after a Brexit. But what were they voting for? Being in the single market but free of the admittedly dubious Common Agricultural Policy and Common Fisheries Policy? That could actually be economically strong. Or dropping free movement of labour and thus having to leave the single market? I have no idea how that would be economically good. We're not going to get any more Commonwealth or US investment by doing that. The uncertainty over what Britain has voted for is the core of the disaster.
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Post by Moose on Jun 28, 2016 21:49:18 GMT
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Post by JoeP on Jun 28, 2016 22:22:53 GMT
The answer to their question is simple. And The Guardian doesn't give the answer because however much it tries to deny it, it's part of Establishment Media. The answer is: Thatcher's government and to some extent Blair's government and to a great extent Cameron's government increased inequality and took away hope for huge numbers of Brits. Meanwhile Rupert Murdoch persuaded them that the UK governments were not doing anything of the sort, but that it was all the fault of foreigners. Racism has been carefully nurtured in this country.
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Post by JoeP on Jun 28, 2016 22:23:13 GMT
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Post by Moose on Jun 29, 2016 2:07:06 GMT
The answer to their question is simple. And The Guardian doesn't give the answer because however much it tries to deny it, it's part of Establishment Media. The answer is: Thatcher's government and to some extent Blair's government and to a great extent Cameron's government increased inequality and took away hope for huge numbers of Brits. Meanwhile Rupert Murdoch persuaded them that the UK governments were not doing anything of the sort, but that it was all the fault of foreigners. Racism has been carefully nurtured in this country. Reminds me of something I read in a Stephen King novel once. My paraphrase because I can't be bothered to check it but it was something like "In the huge realm of victims there is a subclass: the victims of victims." True the fucking world over I think. The overwhelming majority of my neigbours probably voted out. Probably too they won't even realise what they have done when the shit hits the fan.
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Post by ProdigalAlan on Jun 29, 2016 7:11:26 GMT
The answer to their question is simple. And The Guardian doesn't give the answer because however much it tries to deny it, it's part of Establishment Media. The answer is: Thatcher's government and to some extent Blair's government and to a great extent Cameron's government increased inequality and took away hope for huge numbers of Brits. Meanwhile Rupert Murdoch persuaded them that the UK governments were not doing anything of the sort, but that it was all the fault of foreigners. Racism has been carefully nurtured in this country. I'm sorry but this is by no means true. I was working as a chef for the NHS. I was skilled, having complete an apprenticeship and with City and Guilds qualifications. As a NHS employee under the Labour government I was one of the lowest paid workers in the country. Inflation was at 17.5%. We, the lowest paid, were told that our wage rise was going to be 15%. This led to the "winter of discontent" where the whole of the public sector, low paid, employees had no option but to strike. In real terms the very lowest paid workers were having a wage cut imposed upon them. We voted that Labour government out. The Labour Party treated their lowest paid workers with utter contempt. This is not some hypothetical situation, this happened to me and millions like me. As a sole wage earner with two children I was getting up at 5 o'clock in the morning and walking to work. I could not afford petrol for my car. I did this even when the streets of Reading were thick with snow. Had I stopped working and claimed unemployment benefits I would have been financially better off. My kids got teased because we could not afford what families on the dole could. So we voted for Thatcher. My life and the lives of millions improved. She rewarded work and workers. She stopped the "closed shop" where some idiot who had never so much as fried an egg could stop me working if I didn't join the union. Wages for the poor went up, unemployment benefits did not. The poorest members of the working class, who were prepared to work, were rewarded for their efforts. This is not theory. This is not propaganda. These are the things I and millions like me experienced.
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Post by juju on Jun 29, 2016 7:45:39 GMT
I think you need to speak to my friend who was a Sheffield miner in the 80s. Thatcher remains a dirty word for him, and for millions of people whose livelihoods were destroyed by her - manufacturing in Britain fell by 24% between 1980 and 1983 and unemployment went from 1 million to 3 million. Thatcher the saviour of the working class? I think they would beg to differ. But that's looking too far back. We have a huge problem now with the working classes who feel disaffected and abandoned. They have seen how little Tory (and to an extent Blairite) governments have done for them, especially those who are disabled. My job is with disabled students and the budget has just been drastically cut. I have one old friend on Facebook who is disabled and is terrified what the next incarnation of Toryism will bring. The trouble is, in times like these the disaffected will turn to Nationalism, and we all know where that can lead.
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Post by juju on Jun 29, 2016 9:41:07 GMT
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Post by ProdigalAlan on Jun 29, 2016 11:29:56 GMT
I do talk to miners, then and now. I talk to the Nottinghamshire miners. Miners who's union would not allow them to vote on strike action. Miners who thought that the right to vote was an important right, a right worth fighting for. Miners who had bricks thrown through their children's bedroom windows when those children were asleep.
I can believe Mrs Thatcher is a dirty word for some. She believed in the right to vote and the end of the closed shop. I believe in the right to vote. The Notts miners believed in the right to vote. Even Neil Kinnock told Arthur Svargill that he could not support the strike until every member had had his vote.
It's called democracy and it's called freedom and Thatcher won her elections because that's what she fought for.
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Post by juju on Jun 29, 2016 12:16:15 GMT
Sorry Alan, I think you're being really naive to think that Thatcher was and is anything but reviled by a large proportion of the working classes, especially those who were around then and whose jobs and livelihoods she destroyed. She decimated Britain's manufacturing base and that has created a poverty traps which exist today. We went from 1 million to 3 million unemployed - people's lives were destroyed. I don't think you could defend that to their faces.
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Post by JoeP on Jun 29, 2016 12:18:01 GMT
Reminds me of something I read in a Stephen King novel once. My paraphrase because I can't be bothered to check it but it was something like "In the huge realm of victims there is a subclass: the victims of victims." Found it: in The Stand
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Post by ProdigalAlan on Jun 29, 2016 12:36:32 GMT
Juju - I'm not talking from some theoretical standpoint.
I come from those poverty traps. I come from the sink estates. I wasn't born into a soft middle class lifestyle ( which I now have ) I lived through this. So did my family and friends. I was at the very margin of society. I ( and millions like me ) went from rock bottom and being given a pay cut by Labour to the lifestyle I now have. This isn't theory, this isn't political posturing, this is the truth for me and the millions like me that Thatcher pulled out of desperation.
I lived through it. Naïve- that's insulting.
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Post by juju on Jun 29, 2016 12:46:39 GMT
It's also insulting to the millions who who lost their jobs and their livelioods, especially the colliery communities, to re-write history and pretend that Thatcher was their saviour. They didn't think that then and they don't think that now. I don't know how you can write off the experience and opinion of so many people because it doesn't fit your view.
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Post by ProdigalAlan on Jun 29, 2016 13:12:57 GMT
To be upset Juju, I don't think you give a stuff about someone like me. Someone at the very bottom of the pile who, along with millions of other public service workers, had just been given a damn good kicking by Labour.
I don't think you care that Thatcher handed us hope and practical help.
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Post by juju on Jun 29, 2016 13:40:41 GMT
I also come from a working class background - my father grew up in a two up two down without a bathroom. Don't lecture me about being working class - try lecturing the miners and people from Britain's now decimated manufacturing base about Thatcher. Try telling them that she saved them. See how you get on. You are talking subjectively - fine, that's your prerogative. You are entitled to your opinion. But you don't speak for everyone and that is not everyone's experience. Under Thatcher, unemployment rose by TWO MILLION because she destroyed Britain's manufacturing. She seemed to be offering a way out of being working class by becoming middle class homeowners. Except not everyone could. People got left behind, and still are left behind, in Britain's poverty trapped areas with no manfacturing jobs left for them. Not everyone could study or buy their way out. Her reign was the start of massive, and growing, inequality. Here's a recent study: www.dur.ac.uk/news/newsitem/?itemno=20097You talk about caring - do you care about those people, Alan?
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Post by Moose on Jun 29, 2016 16:39:10 GMT
Thatcher is certainly not respected where I live - the pits are still here but now they are tearooms. However I am prepared to accept that some people did prosper under her leadership. The problem is that a lot, like the ex miners where I live, did not.
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Post by whollygoats on Jun 29, 2016 16:43:10 GMT
Yeah...From across the pond, I see Thatcher as having sold the British working class down the river. I think ProdigalAlan has embraced his own abuser. Go juju, go....I think you've got it. Spot on. As for Nigel Ferange...Every time I see his last name, this is the image which flashes through my mind: So....Is it Boris for Grand Negus?
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Post by juju on Jun 29, 2016 17:24:09 GMT
Farage needs to shut up and go away. He's embarrassing us all. And what's more, he's a bloody Trump supporter, surprise surprise. Grrr. 😠
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Post by JoeP on Jun 29, 2016 17:35:56 GMT
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