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Justin
Jul 9, 2016 19:12:18 GMT
Post by whollygoats on Jul 9, 2016 19:12:18 GMT
So people's opinions are not worth anything if they have not tried it themselves: If I never have used heroin, I don't know anything and should not even voice an opinion if heroin should be prohibited If I never have used weapons, I don't know anything and should not even voice an opinion on gun control You can voice whatever opinion you might have. That's your right. But it also my right to discount that opinion based upon my opinion of your ability, or lack of ability, to adequately assess the issue. I don't use heroin, yet I can say with some assurance that I would strongly recommend that nobody use it, as it has well-known addictive properties and causes physical breakdown. My opinions upon heroin use can be readily discounted as I have no personal or professional use of or contact with users of heroin products. Feel free to do so. As for weapons, I grew up in a household where firearm use was the norm. My father was an avid NRA member and a deer-hunter. He spent most of his life in rural areas where guns in rifle-racks in the window of your pickup, and a pistol stowed under the driver's seat, was common. We reloaded our own ammunition and I helped my father melt lead and pour bullets. I know that culture well and when I walked away from it, I knew exactly why and what the true dangers were. My reasoning has only been reinforced in the intervening fifty years. When I see critics of an established, accepted system, I expect them to have some actually passing experience with the realities...having been a user imparts that experience and provides a modicum of authenticity and gravity to the opinion. (If you want a superb insight on firearms issues in the US, I strongly recommend you check out Jim Wright at his online blog, Stonekettle Station. Mr. Wright spent much of his adult career as a professional killer...a US Navy munitions and firearms specialist and a crack sharpshooter. He is a firearm owner and user. When he writes about weapons and those who have them and use them, he writes from a position of unquestionable authority.) By all means, if your life is on the line, then you have an opinion of value. But that doesn't make it the only, or even the 'right' opinion. As for scientific opinion underlying the use of cannabis as an intoxicant...wait. Such research has been systematically suppressed since anyone was willing the question the 'authorized version'. Rather like how valid replicable research into gun violence by is suppressed by interest-purchased governmental interference.
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Justin
Jul 9, 2016 19:22:29 GMT
Post by Moose on Jul 9, 2016 19:22:29 GMT
To go slightly off topic, I would point out that most of the deaths from heroin come BECAUSE it is illegal. People die from using an impure version of the drug which may vary tremendously in strength. Or they get hepatitis or HIV from sharing needles. If heroin were legal the deaths would be a lot lower and I highly doubt that there'd be more use.
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Justin
Jul 9, 2016 19:27:09 GMT
Post by whollygoats on Jul 9, 2016 19:27:09 GMT
Yeah...Well, this discussion has wandered far from the hunkiness of Justin Trudeau.
Just to note: I thought Trudeau's cabinet appointments were inspired. I wish him well and hope Canada benefits hugely from his leadership.
I suspect he and his closest advisors smoked a doobie before that decision....
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Justin
Jul 9, 2016 19:56:25 GMT
Post by whollygoats on Jul 9, 2016 19:56:25 GMT
NHS says, "Cannabis affects your ability to drive. This is one of the reasons why drug driving, like drink driving, is illegal. One French study found that drivers who had been using cannabis were more than twice as likely to cause a fatal car crash." Here in the US, the National Institutes of Health's National Institute on Drug Abuse reports out online that, (My bold.) Yes. This is one of the reasons drug driving is illegal, right there along with drunk driving. Here, we call it DUII, 'driving under the influence of intoxicants'. It is already illegal. The question here is why is it that one of the substances which impairs one's driving ability a Schedule One drug, complete with federal felony charges, when it is no where near as dangerous as one which is readily available everywhere and is legal? (Again, I'd add electronic communication devices as 'intoxicants' and that they induce 'wanton disregard for safety' and 'reckless endangerment'...and, yet, our law enforcement officers rarely act at all. All your hand-waving about drug driving is nothing but a red herring which has no bearing on whether cannabis should be legal for recreational consumption. To have any credibility at all, you should FIRST demand that all alcoholic beverages, and all processes associated with their production and distribution, be criminalized...at least to the same level as cannabis. Seriously present that, and I might give you some credence....wait...no I won't. But at least you'll be consistent about your intoxicants. Good luck with that.
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Justin
Jul 9, 2016 20:46:22 GMT
Post by whollygoats on Jul 9, 2016 20:46:22 GMT
Since spaceflower cited some hyperconservative propaganda, I think I'll respond with something which better fits my intellectual bias: From Men's Journal, and recommended by NORML (National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws) : some background. Just to show all the cognitive damage I've suffered. Keep in mind, it has only been criminalized in the US since starting in the early 1900s to the present. And the reason for that was that it allowed minority users to be marginalized and incarcerated. So...As I've already stated, criminalization of cannabis for recreational intoxicant use is a tool of the authoritarian majority to subjegate and suppress those in minorities, to marginalize, disenfranchise and dispossess them. It is a tool of bigots and racists. That is the garment you have put on. Are you willing to wear it?
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Justin
Jul 9, 2016 23:20:37 GMT
Post by spaceflower on Jul 9, 2016 23:20:37 GMT
I don't care what the reasons were then. And it's not like the minorities of Sweden use more drugs than other people. Though khat is a new drug, used mainly by Somali people. And the reason that many dispise Somali men. They don't work, they are lasy and chew khat all day. In short, the drug preventes them from being integrated.
About alcohol, are there any disadvantages if you drink "normal"? I mean that you're not an alcoholic and not binge drinking. I think that I've read that a glass of wine every day is not bad (some even say good). The problem with alcohol is that people drink too much, violence and accidents occur. The problem with cannabis is not obvious at first, but it affects the brain in the long run. If it was legal, more will use it.
Alcohol can be dangerous, therefore we should legalize another dangerous drug? No, your logic is not convincing. I have already explained that we cannot forbid alcocol now due to longstanding tradtions. USA tried and failed.
It is not as if people who use cannabis refrain from alcohol altogheter either. The combination is even more risky. And once you've started using cannabis, why not try cocaine, LSD, etc.
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Justin
Jul 9, 2016 23:30:25 GMT
Post by spaceflower on Jul 9, 2016 23:30:25 GMT
To go slightly off topic, I would point out that most of the deaths from heroin come BECAUSE it is illegal. People die from using an impure version of the drug which may vary tremendously in strength. Or they get hepatitis or HIV from sharing needles. If heroin were legal the deaths would be a lot lower and I highly doubt that there'd be more use. There are free needle exchange programmes, in Sweden and otherwise. There are also methadone programmes, sort of legal heroin. But the ultimate aim is to be drug free. But the positive side of drugs being illegal is that some hesitate to break the law and buy from criminals. There was a study about alcohol which is illegal to buy if you're under 20. Often teenagers get alcohol anyway, bought by elder siblings or friends (or even parents!). But if can't get it by people they know, many refrain from buying smuggled alcohol from someone they don't know. Not all teenagers of course.
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Justin
Jul 9, 2016 23:34:08 GMT
Post by Moose on Jul 9, 2016 23:34:08 GMT
Bit of a generalisation of Somali men there. Are you saying that not one of them has a job?
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Justin
Jul 9, 2016 23:43:06 GMT
Post by spaceflower on Jul 9, 2016 23:43:06 GMT
Bit of a generalisation of Somali men there. Are you saying that not one of them has a job? No, of course not. But what some do, makes people generalize. It affects the whole group. I've read on social media and Somali men ranks lowest in people's opinion. Seems like nobody wants them. They are considered to all live on welfare, the women take care of the kids and the men chew khat. According to the steretype, they are also analphabets and their children do not do well in school.
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Justin
Jul 9, 2016 23:46:55 GMT
Post by Moose on Jul 9, 2016 23:46:55 GMT
I dunno what an analphabet is but maybe being regarded as the lowest of the pile is not helping them at all? . Or their children. Are there many Somalis in Sweden?
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Justin
Jul 9, 2016 23:52:37 GMT
Post by whollygoats on Jul 9, 2016 23:52:37 GMT
I don't care what the reasons were then. And it's not like the minorities of Sweden use more drugs than other people. Though khat is a new drug, used mainly by Somali people. And the reason that many dispise Somali men. They don't work, they are lasy and chew khat all day. In short, the drug preventes them from being integrated. That sounds like an ugly xenophobic racist comment to me. We're in agreement here. I challenge you to present uncontroversial evidence to support this claim. I think it is bullshit. Possibly. But then again, I don't think you have any evidence of that at all. However, if it is legalized, then countless numbers of users who already use a benign substance will no longer be stigmitized by arrest records, convictions and misguided attitudes of bogus law enforcers for engaging in a behavior which harms no one. And, the more people who use it, the more public revenue that will be raised through sales taxes on cannabis and it can provide for a lot more public benefits. Look in to the Colorado experience. Yes, I know. And, it failed with prohibiting cannabis as well, and for some of the very same reasons. Ah, yes...the 'gateway drug' lie. The gateway drugs are alcohol, nicotine, and caffeine. They are all legal and very ,very easy to get ahold of. Most are legally banned for adolescents and younger. Those are your gateway drugs. "I've tried tobacco, which is proven to be bad for me...why not shoot up some smack now?" Frankly, in the US, I worry far more about the ready availability of military-grade assault rifles with multiple oversized ammo magazines. The gunpowder addiction in this country kills far, far more than any stoner sucking on a doobie. You need to get your priorities straight and stop trying to run other peoples lives. Do you get inordinately incensed about other people's sex lives, too?
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Justin
Jul 9, 2016 23:57:01 GMT
Post by spaceflower on Jul 9, 2016 23:57:01 GMT
I dunno what an analphabet is but maybe being regarded as the lowest of the pile is not helping them at all? . Or their children. Are there many Somalis in Sweden? Oh, I thought analphabet was an international word. Illeterate is the English word. The big refugee groups in Sweden ar Arabs from Irak and Syria, Somali, Eritreans and Afghani. I don't know the exact numbers but in many cases they have low education. They will not find a job until they lived on welfare on 7-8 years (or never). There have been many refugees before from Latin America and former Yugoslavia. But they hade higher education and were more easily integrated. There is always a hierarchy of immigrants. At the top are those from the Nordic and generally western countries. Those who are most similiar to us in culture. Muslims are at the bottom and their culture and religion is seen as furthest away. And ever since the Irak invasion those are most common refugees.
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Justin
Jul 10, 2016 0:33:06 GMT
Post by spaceflower on Jul 10, 2016 0:33:06 GMT
I don't care what the reasons were then. And it's not like the minorities of Sweden use more drugs than other people. Though khat is a new drug, used mainly by Somali people. And the reason that many dispise Somali men. They don't work, they are lasy and chew khat all day. In short, the drug preventes them from being integrated. That sounds like an ugly xenophobic racist comment to me. I don't care how it sounds; the problem exists. Muslims are not allowed to drink alcohol (though some do anyway), but the Somalie use khat. And in Swedish socieaty you stay sober during the weekdays and work, and then party (with alcohol) at the weekend. The Somali men who hang about alla days with no work and chewing khat are visible, so many think all are such. I have a feeling that whatever I find, you will disregard. And scientific research can be contradictory. But why take the risk? Here is one I find but you will probablys say that it is not uncontoversial: www.apa.org/monitor/2015/11/marijuana-brain.aspx Possibly. But then again, I don't think you have and evidence of that at all. However, if it is legalized, then countless numbers of users who already use a benign substance will no longer be stigmitized by arrest records, convictions and misguided attitudes of bogus law enforcers for engaging in a behavior which harms no one. Yes, I know. And, it failed with prohibiting cannabis as well, and for some of the very same reasons. Ah, yes...the 'gateway drug' lie. The gateway drugs are alcohol, nicotine, and caffeine. They are all legal and very ,very easy to get ahold of. Most are legally banned for adolescents and younger. Those are your gateway drugs. "I've tried tobacco, which is proven to be bad for me...why not shoot up some smack now?[/quote] Usually teenagers gets offered cannabis and stronger drugs ("the first one is free") on parties with alcohol. If I lived in USA, I would worry about gun killings too. When people use drugs, it does not affect only themselves but also their families, their work (if they have work), the taxpayers, the care and rehabilitation (there never seems to be enough money). No man is an island, etc. Other people's sex lives are none of my concern. I don't find that sex (something normal and healthy; without it we would die out) and drugs (unhealthy and may lead to untimely death) to have anything to do with each other. But I think sex and drugs risky (forget using condoms). My views on drugs are the same as the official one in Sweden. So you say we all don't "have our priorities right"? Some Swedish pupils go to school a year in USA. I would not have wanted to send my teenager there b/c of the risk of her being influenced by the cannabis smoking culture. I have a feeling it is more accepted there, even by (otherwise) responsble parents. Of course, a year in USA would have been too expensive anyway. She has spent many years in China, which I find safer. If my daughter ever been into drugs, I would have been devastated.
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Justin
Jul 10, 2016 0:42:34 GMT
Post by Moose on Jul 10, 2016 0:42:34 GMT
I spent several years with a Finnish guy and he said to me that the drug culture there was rather different than that in the UK and presumably the US. He had smoked cannabis himself but said that it was not mainstream there and he likened it to the way that glue sniffing might be regarded in the UK. But - the culture really is different here. I have rarely met anyone of my age who has not at least once smoked pot.
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Justin
Jul 10, 2016 6:33:09 GMT
Post by whollygoats on Jul 10, 2016 6:33:09 GMT
I spent several years with a Finnish guy and he said to me that the drug culture there was rather different than that in the UK and presumably the US. He had smoked cannabis himself but said that it was not mainstream there and he likened it to the way that glue sniffing might be regarded in the UK. But - the culture really is different here. I have rarely met anyone of my age who has not at least once smoked pot. Yeah...Likewise. Even those who don't smoke it have often tried it. Many decide it's just not for them. The biggest complaint I hear, and it usually, but not always, comes from women...that it makes them anxious. Amongst users there are a vast spectrum of types of users. I've known city commissioners, police officers, professors, lawyers, clerics...practically any kind of person you can think of in American society who are occasional stoners. Some of the most intelligent minds I've met in my life are occasional cannabis users, and I worked in a research university for nearly thirty years. I guess that if it makes me stupid, then spaceflower should be thankful, otherwise she would not be able to understand a thing I was writing here....it would be far beyond her stunted ability to conceptualize and comprehend.
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Justin
Jul 10, 2016 6:44:34 GMT
Post by whollygoats on Jul 10, 2016 6:44:34 GMT
I challenge you to present uncontroversial evidence to support this claim. I think it is bullshit. I have a feeling that whatever I find, you will disregard. And scientific research can be contradictory. But why take the risk? Here is one I find but you will probablys say that it is not uncontoversial: www.apa.org/monitor/2015/11/marijuana-brain.aspxYou're right. Well, not disregard, but discount. The article itself admits to controversy. And, you are still referencing adolescents. I told you already that adolescents are forbidden by law from obtaining or using cannabis...so legally your concern is misplaced; it is moot. My government has many 'official positions'. I do not think all of them correct in their priorities. Indeed, I think many of my government's priorities to be perverse...as are your government's and yours. Excellent. Keep her away, if she's anything like you. We don't need any more ignorant bigots and racists here. We've too many already. P.S. - You haven't been to China, have you? You do know it is an entirely analphabetic culture?
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Justin
Jul 10, 2016 6:55:36 GMT
Post by whollygoats on Jul 10, 2016 6:55:36 GMT
Oh...and bye the bye...I would put good money on Justin Trudeau being an occasional cannabis user. He's got that mellow hoser outlook.
What the hell do you think fuels Tim Horton's, any way?
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Justin
Jul 10, 2016 8:08:40 GMT
Post by Miisa on Jul 10, 2016 8:08:40 GMT
I spent several years with a Finnish guy and he said to me that the drug culture there was rather different than that in the UK and presumably the US. He had smoked cannabis himself but said that it was not mainstream there and he likened it to the way that glue sniffing might be regarded in the UK. But - the culture really is different here. I have rarely met anyone of my age who has not at least once smoked pot. I can vouch for the prevalence of this attitude, glue-sniffing is not a far-out comparison culturally. But also the alcohol culture is very different. As mentioned above, drinking lots on the weekend is quite acceptable, but drinking every day is not. The pub culture is the norm in the UK, but if someone here were to nip down to the pub for a couple of pints after work regularly they would be considered probable alcoholics, whether that were fair or not. Doesn't mean the pub drinkers actually drink more during an average week, it is really the distribution of it over the week that is the cultural difference. Probably because there is such a cultural or genetic predisposition for addiction around here, I suppose. .
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Justin
Jul 10, 2016 10:48:35 GMT
Post by spaceflower on Jul 10, 2016 10:48:35 GMT
I have a feeling that whatever I find, you will disregard. And scientific research can be contradictory. But why take the risk? Here is one I find but you will probablys say that it is not uncontoversial: www.apa.org/monitor/2015/11/marijuana-brain.aspxYou're right. Well, not disregard, but discount. The article itself admits to controversy. And, you are still referencing adolescents. I told you already that adolescents are forbidden by law from obtaining or using cannabis...so legally your concern is misplaced; it is moot. And you keep disregarding what I say. I have already written that if it is considered ok for grown-ups, teenagers will do it too. Just like they drink alcohol even if it is prohibited to sell alcohol to anyone under 20. I find your accusations rude and slanderous. And arguments ad hominem. I don't know what you mean by "analphabetic culture". China's culture is older than both the Swedish and the American cultures. But I know very well that China is a dictatorship. Sadly, life for expats can be safer in such a country.
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Justin
Jul 10, 2016 14:19:54 GMT
Post by whollygoats on Jul 10, 2016 14:19:54 GMT
You're right. Well, not disregard, but discount. The article itself admits to controversy. And, you are still referencing adolescents. I told you already that adolescents are forbidden by law from obtaining or using cannabis...so legally your concern is misplaced; it is moot. And you keep disregarding what I say. I have already written that if it is considered ok for grown-ups, teenagers will do it too. Just like they drink alcohol even if it is prohibited to sell alcohol to anyone under 20. So, you don't trust even dictatorships to protect youth from the ravages of ganga, eh? Yet, you sent your daughter right in to the place where cannabis originated globally. Don't fool yourself, it still grows there and is readily available. It's part and parcel of their culture. I know, I was there. A friend who lived in Yunnan told me that the stuff grows wild along the roads...it's ditchweed. The Chinese don't seem to even consider it worth criminalizing. And, I did not disregard what you wrote, I discounted it. I even dismissed it. Learn the difference. You, however, have entirely disregarded the background I posted, which made it clear that cannabis originated in China (or central Asia) and has been widely used as a medicinal, and recreational intoxicant, by the multitudinous peoples of the Eurasian continent, including the Chinese, for some 14,000 years. Cannabis is one of the 50 'fundamental herbs' of traditional Chinese medicine. So, I'm laughing out loud at your ignorance. Likewise, I'm sure. The feeling is mutual. Your entire conversation has been rude, libelous and outrageously racist from the get-go. So, right back at you, bigot. You injected the word, I didn't. And you thought just everybody would know exactly what you meant. LOL. I did, however, explain to you what it might mean to those actually using the English language correctly. I did that in this thread. You disregarded that. LOL. So, yeah. It must be tough, living in a dictatorship where they can get cannabis without much of anyone even caring. LOL. China is, of course, a country where, if you insult the Party, the reward is summary justice by a swift bullet to the brain. No trial, no real justice. Human life is incredibly cheap. You like that, don't you? That's because, as I suspect, you are probably an ignorant bigot. And, probably a fucking fascist, too.
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Justin
Jul 10, 2016 14:56:26 GMT
Post by spaceflower on Jul 10, 2016 14:56:26 GMT
I spent several years with a Finnish guy and he said to me that the drug culture there was rather different than that in the UK and presumably the US. He had smoked cannabis himself but said that it was not mainstream there and he likened it to the way that glue sniffing might be regarded in the UK. But - the culture really is different here. I have rarely met anyone of my age who has not at least once smoked pot. I have never smoked pot, nor has my husband. About the alcohol culture, a new thing is "after-work" at the pub with workmates on Fridays and only on Fridays. An imported custom. If one has to drink everyday, it is seen as the first step to alcoholism (unless you drink a glass of wine or beer at dinner). We don't have the pub culture here, people want to go home to their families after work. Generally people feel they spend enough time with their work mates and not enough time with their families (children). Which is one reason that foreigners find us boring. A thing that parents worry about is that their children will drink too much or take drugs. But the good news is that teenagers drink less now than in the 70s. sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=2054&artikel=6203782But are they using other drugs instead? Not that this says anything about cannabis, which is not a "synthetic drug".
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Justin
Jul 10, 2016 15:14:48 GMT
Post by whollygoats on Jul 10, 2016 15:14:48 GMT
I spent several years with a Finnish guy and he said to me that the drug culture there was rather different than that in the UK and presumably the US. He had smoked cannabis himself but said that it was not mainstream there and he likened it to the way that glue sniffing might be regarded in the UK. But - the culture really is different here. I have rarely met anyone of my age who has not at least once smoked pot. I have never smoked pot, nor has my husband. About the alcohol culture, a new thing is "after-work" at the pub with workmates on Fridays and only on Fridays. An imported custom. If one has to drink everyday, it is seen as the first step to alcoholism (unless you drink a glass of wine or beer at dinner). We don't have the pub culture here, people want to go home to their families after work. Generally people feel they spend enough time with their work mates and not enough time with their families (children). Which is one reason that foreigners find us boring. Oh, I don't think you're boring at all. I don't drink much, at all. I think it an expensive, destructive, and a waste. I'd rather go home and smoke a bowlful with friends and family, commune and feast in conviviality. Rather, I'd say what you are describing is 'pathologically rigid'. That would be more apt, but I tend to think that impression arises from you, rather than the Swedish people. And, please, don't even ever try pot. All you would do is drive up demand, and thus, the availability and price, and I don't think it will ever extract that poker from where you have it so deeply inserted.
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Justin
Jul 10, 2016 18:01:09 GMT
Post by Moose on Jul 10, 2016 18:01:09 GMT
Okay okay this is getting out of hand ... can we quit with the ad homs? I think this is one of those things where you're going to have to agree that you don't have the same opinion on things. I am not even sure how we got ONTO this subject when we started out with the Canadian PM.
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Justin
Jul 10, 2016 18:51:38 GMT
Post by whollygoats on Jul 10, 2016 18:51:38 GMT
Me, either.
My apologies to the readers.
Still, as I already stated, it certainly looks to me as though Justin Trudeau and his advisors smoked a doobie (or several!) before making their selections of cabinet ministerial positions.
And, then, when asked why he had done what he had, he responded by telling the world, "Hey, it's 2016."
Masterful...The Dude abides, man.
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Post by Kye on Jul 10, 2016 19:21:06 GMT
I especially love our Minister of Defence, Harjit Sajjan (speaking of hot...):
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Justin
Jul 10, 2016 19:41:16 GMT
Post by Moose on Jul 10, 2016 19:41:16 GMT
He's your minister of defence? LOL I want to move to Canada. Kye, do you have the topless pic of your PM for me to shamelessly leer over?
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Post by Kye on Jul 10, 2016 20:24:52 GMT
This is the famous one, but just google "Justin Trudeau boxing" and you'll see a bunch more.
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Justin
Jul 10, 2016 20:36:47 GMT
Post by Moose on Jul 10, 2016 20:36:47 GMT
*clunk*
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Justin
Jul 10, 2016 21:43:14 GMT
Post by jayme on Jul 10, 2016 21:43:14 GMT
*swoon*
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Justin
Jul 10, 2016 21:44:37 GMT
Post by jayme on Jul 10, 2016 21:44:37 GMT
Well, I guess I agree with Spaceflower about one thing: he does look better without those clothes.
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