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Post by Elis on Feb 9, 2017 12:35:07 GMT
Recently, I stumbled over this on Instagram and got curious, so I started having a look at some of the Body Positivity Accounts. It seems like many of these accounts are run by overweight women posting pictures of themselves in bikinis, underwear or naked, claiming they are beautiful that way. There was also an account by a very slim tattooed woman as well as one run by a slim, former anorexic woman who uploads picturews of herself in the most unflattering positions to show that even skinny people have stomach rolls when sitting down or beding over and that this is beautiful and something that should be embraced.
In a way I can see where this is coming from and I realize that today's beauty standards are not necessarily healthy. And I have heard enough stories of overweight people having to put up with nasty remarks by strangers or people saying that overweight women should not go swimming or wear a bikini at the beach. My dad who is very overweight also has to deal with a lot of prejudice when he sees doctors because they think he binged himself into being diabetic while it was an undiscovered diabetes that made him gain all that weight (he used to be quite skinny when he was around 20 years old). And while I'm not overweight, I have to wear long sleeves if I don't want to hear nasty remarks or at least get very obviously stared at. I don't think anyone should be discriminated against or have to listen to nasty remarks because of their body or be told they should not wear a bikini (I'm scared when I go swimming that someone might say the scars are offensive to others).
However, the Body Positivity Movement seems to go further, claiming that all these things are beautiful. I have been thinking about this for a while and have to admit that I don't agree and am a bit critical of the entire thing. Not that I think people who are overweight (or missing a leg or people who have loads of scars like me) can't be beautiful in any way. There might be something in their face and their eyes, in how they move or talk or their hair etc...., but I wouldn't say an overweight body itself or scars or stomach rolls or a missing leg are beautiful. And I would be confused and a bit disturbed if Frank asked me to get naked and then get into the most unflattering positions for him because he loves to see how the stomach folds when sitting down and bending over - or if I could get rid of the scars and he would beg me not to). Admittedly, I might be prejudiced because in a way it seems personal. I have my scarred arms and I don't find them beautiful at all, I hate them. And I wouldn't want anyone else to find them beautiful. If people said they think I'm beautiful despite the scars, I'd be ok with that, if they told me I was beautiful because of the scars, I would hate that because I hate the scars and if I could, I would get rid of them.
And finally, another thing that is criticized is that especially some of the overweigth activists of the Body Positivity Movement seem to think it is nothing for slim people. Slim people keep themselves slim by starving themselves or exercising too much in order to conform to the beauty standards, so they have no need and no right to be Body Positive. I have a BMI thhat is considered to be slim and don't starve to be there and one of my sisters is quite skinny because of a chronic condition, yet some people would say she's too skinny to be part of the Body Positive Movement.
To sum up, I'm still not sure what to make of it and I'm also not sure I might not be too prejudiced to understand Body Positivity. I would want for myself what I would want for overweight people and everyone else who in any way does not conform to the beauty standards of society: being able to wear short sleeves or to go swimming without having to fear nasty remarks or strangers just touching some body part or people saying it is offensive to show certain flaws, being able to just be without having to worry about discrimination or shaming or insult. But I just don't think my scars (or my stomach when I sit down and bend over) are beautiful and I wouldn't really want anyone else to say they are.
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Post by tangent on Feb 9, 2017 13:21:42 GMT
Beauty and body image is a difficult subject and I agree with what you say (although it’s a person’s personality that makes them really beautiful). If people said they think I'm beautiful despite the scars, I'd be ok with that... I think you're beautiful despite the scars.
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Post by raspberrybullets on Feb 11, 2017 9:32:01 GMT
I think anything that makes women feel good about their bodies, and also highlights the diversity of body shapes, sizes, features etc has to be a good thing. Because on media we mostly see very little body diversity, it's normal size women, usually white, able bodied etc. So I think the idea behind body positivity is that bodies come in all forms - different colours, different sizes, different shapes, different abilities and so on. It's not that a hugely fat stomach itself is beautiful, but that a person is beautiful and a person will not have the one body shape we constantly see portrayed in the media.
Also, beauty is very much in the eyes of the beholder. What you find beautiful, someone else might not find attractive and vice versa.
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Post by Moose on Feb 11, 2017 23:47:33 GMT
I am fat and I hate it .. I don't consider myself beautiful (that's not fishing for compliments so please don't). I also have some severe burn scarring on my left arm and a lesser amount on parts of my body that people don't generally see. I don't consider my scars beautiful either and I am not proud of them but I know that I will carry them for life. That said, I don't think that anyone has the right to comment on them either. I can live with people asking (and they sometimes do; I just say I was accidentally burned) but I don't really want people insincerely telling me that they look nice. They don't.
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Post by Elis on Aug 21, 2017 10:14:17 GMT
Am digging this back up because I have been reading more and looking at more accounts on Instagram. What confises me that I have found a few body positivity accounts by women who were extremely overweight, probably weiging about 2/3 more than they should and posing im underwear. In itself I don't mind that,but when they basically say that they are good that way and want to be accepted at that way, I do wonder about the health aspect. Years ago people were outraged about pro-Ana forums which claimed Anorexia Nervosa was a desirable lifestyle. That was condemned because Anorexia Nervosa is unhealthy at best and life-threatening when it goes to far. But so is extreme obesity, so what makes it ok to claim that is a desirable way to be? Am scared that writing this is discriminating somehow, but I have to admit I find it hard to see why extreme obesity is supposed to be ok. I'm ready to accept anything that is more or less in or near a healthy area (even though I don't necessarily find it beautiful), but I struggle with the notion that it is fine to live with a BMI of 50. Is that wrong? Or why would a BMI of 50 be more acceptable than a BMI of 12?
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Post by tangent on Aug 21, 2017 11:24:17 GMT
There are no easy answers to this. If you're extremely overweight, an obsession with finding yourself beautiful is itself unhealthy, and can be dangerous because it removes the motivation to lose weight.
I'd much prefer to place the emphasis on the mind and say someone has a beautiful personality.
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Post by Elis on Aug 22, 2017 13:14:22 GMT
There are no easy answers to this. If you're extremely overweight, an obsession with finding yourself beautiful is itself unhealthy, and can be dangerous because it removes the motivation to lose weight. This is difficult, I admit. I wouldn't want anyone to feel bad about their body,no matter their weight, but then if it goes off to being either way too thin or way too obese, there are health priblems that come with it. And I have to admit I find it hard to undrrstand why everybody (rightly) would tell a severely anorexic person to gain weight, but not an extremely obese person to lose weight. I finde it hard to get the difference. That being said, I prefer even people with a perfect figure in clothes, generally. To me, everyone looks better in clothes.
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Post by tangent on Aug 22, 2017 13:26:43 GMT
I certainly look better in clothes haha!
Yes, there's illogical inconsistency in the way we regard anorexic and obese people.
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Post by Elis on Aug 22, 2017 19:08:18 GMT
I'm not sure if there is a good reason for that and that's something I can't figure out. It might be that Anorexics are still closer to a weight that is often portrayed as desirable by the media and they are not thoight of as lazy and having a lack of discipline the way it still seems to happen to obese people. But someone who is extremely obese is probably about as close to death as someone who is severely anorexic, so to me the conclusion is that neither should be seen as desirable or a state that doesn't need to be changed. Still, I might be missing something.
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Post by Moose on Aug 22, 2017 23:15:49 GMT
I do not agree that someone who is severely overweight is as close to death as someone who is severely anorexic but .. I guess it depends on what you define as 'severe.'
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Post by raspberrybullets on Aug 22, 2017 23:23:57 GMT
I think you're right - there isn't a difference between extremes of either end. They both lead to health problems and can lead to death. I think body positivity is important for both groups - for everyone in fact - because that would/should lead to a better mental health state. I think the idea behind body positivity (and I"m not sure specifically about these instagram accounts you talk about as I haven't seen that) is that we should all stop judging and talking about other people's bodies or even be so scared or bothered by our own. I'm not sure I'm going to explain this very well - but when we are so obsessed with bodies and how people look and judge based on that - it's very difficult to just focus on being healthy. I assume the idea with body positivity is to try to overcome some of that by pointing out that people have different body shapes and weights and that's fine; and then also to point out that a person's looks is not what makes the person. If someone is extremely over or under weight that leads to health issues - but so does smoking or drinking alcohol - yet neither of those things have quite the same stigma as weight does. Our focus should be not on appearance but on leading healthy lifestyles - and I know from experience that is extremely hard when you know that people judge you so much on your body. Like if I eat something healthy I feel like people are judging "why is that fat woman trying to pretend she's healthy by eating a salad when we know she's obviously eating junk to be overweight". And if I eat something junky then I feel like people are judging "look at that fat person eating all that junk food, why doesn't she eat something healthy". It's viscious. I think the point with body positivity of larger people is to point out that "hey, we're all different, so stop judging me" which may seem counterintuitive since you are looking at pictures of them - but it's normalising different body types.
Also, some builds really are very big regardless. I remember an interview with a large African American woman who ran like 10-15km every day around mountains and ate healthy - but was really quite large. The obsession with body size is undermining the fact that many people are healthy and large just as some peopele are healthy and very slim. It's the real extremes that get dangerous and a big part of that is how we look at ourselves and feel about our body. If people judged us less, we might be able to judge our own selves less too.
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Post by Elis on Aug 23, 2017 9:14:49 GMT
I do not agree that someone who is severely overweight is as close to death as someone who is severely anorexic but .. I guess it depends on what you define as 'severe.' With "severe" I don't mean someone who is maybe 1.60 m tall and weighs 120 kg. That might be quite overweight, but I wouldn't see that person as being close to death. In my old fencing group there was a man who told me he weighed 150 kg. I would have thought him to weigh maybe 110 or 120 kg, but even at 150 kg he didn't seem unhealthy to me. He moved very fast and was quite good at fencing and altogether there has just been a single exercise he couldn't do because his gut was in the way and most people had problems with that one, for different reasons. But a while ago I found an account on Instagram called glitteranlazers and that lady I would consider extremely overweight, especially considering I tend to estimate people's weight as lower than it really is. It's not that I mind her wearing bikinis (although, as I said before, no matter their figure, I prefer people with clothes on), but I can't imagine that anyone could be healthy at that weight and therefore, I wouldn't see that weight as something that should just be accepted by her. Doesn't mean anyone has the right to call her names or make ugly remarks, but I find it hard to understand how it is ok to be her weight, but it is not ok to be at a BMI of 12 - not that I think the latter should be ok, either. I think to me it seems like she is asking to be accepted that way and for nobody to suggest she should change and I think I have a hard time getting my head round that. If they say "All bodies are good bodies" I find it hard to accept that for someone who is as overweight as that lady. Recently I also read an entry in a forum by a lady who is about 1.70 m and weighs 140 kg. She and her boyfriend have been trying to have a baby and after she had been checked over and they have found she doesn't have endometriosis or other problems they suspected, a doctor told her she needed to lose weight if she wanted to conceive since that was pretty much the only reason they could find for her not getting pregnant. She felt hurt and angry which, on the one hand I can understand, on the other hand I think doctors are the ones who should be allowed to be honest. Btw, smoking is very stigmatized here. When I wrote on a German forum about the incident with our neighbour, people called Frank "disgusting". Because he smokes, some people think he is disgusting as a person. I do wish alcohol was more stigmatized since I met a lot of borderline-alcoholics while working in the bar, but that is still considered to be a vital part of German culture. And, RB, I wouldn't call you fat at all. From the pictures I have seen, you look like you are very much in the range of what I would see as average. And I have to admit that even I sometimes feel odd if I eat something unhealthy in front of other people or if I manage to eat a big meal because I sometimes have the impression that people expect me to live only on salad to stay at the weight I am. The older I get, the more commets I get here where I live because once you are in your 30s, you are apparently expected to pile on a few pounds. Last year my friend invited me and another friend for brunch. My friend had just given birth and was unhappy with her weight gain, which her gynaecologist had criticized, and the other friend said she had also been told to lose some weight. When we reached for the basket with breadrolls, I took one breadroll while the other two just took half each, so I quickly put half of mine back as well, realizing that women my age don't eat an entire breadroll (they each had a doughnut later on which I didn't manage because I eat slowly if I'm distracted by a lively conversation, plus my social anxiety makes me eat more slowly so I don't drop or spill anything in certain situations). raspberrybullets Avatar Aug 23, 2017 1:23:57 GMT 2 raspberrybullets said: I think you're right - there isn't a difference between extremes of either end. They both lead to health problems and can lead to death. I think body positivity is important for both groups - for everyone in fact - because that would/should lead to a better mental health state. I think the idea behind body positivity (and I"m not sure specifically about these instagram accounts you talk about as I haven't seen that) is that we should all stop judging and talking about other people's bodies or even be so scared or bothered by our own. I'm not sure I'm going to explain this very well - but when we are so obsessed with bodies and how people look and judge based on that - it's very difficult to just focus on being healthy. I assume the idea with body positivity is to try to overcome some of that by pointing out that people have different body shapes and weights and that's fine; and then also to point out that a person's looks is not what makes the person. To me it seems like they completely want to redefine beauty. That's why they post bikini pictures or almost naked pictures. So I think it's not so much talking less about bodies, but seeing all bodies as equally beautiful. That's something I find a bit difficult when it comes to Body Positivity: the fact that it seems like we are supposed to see all bodies as beautiful. To me, beauty is something which stands out and I can see that even with our guinea-pigs. Cotton has the perfectly shaped, cute little face and could probably be a guinea-pig model if that existed. Spotty doesn't and her eyes are getting weirder since she is getting blind. I love Spotty just as much as Cotton, besides Spotty has a great personality and has been our little sunshine-piggie: open, trusting and easygoing. But she isn't that pretty. It's the same with people. They don't have to be really skinny, I have seem women who would probably be considered plus-size with beautiful faces, perfect proportions and the ability to dress really well, so they did look very beautiful. At the same time, I know that my face isn't perfectly proportioned and I have a skin condition, plus the scars and a body which doesn't have perfect proportions either. I can live with it. With the right hairstyle, clothes and a bit of make-up, I can look pleasant in an average way and that is enough. I think that's what it's like for most people (even if they are overweight - I once saw a woman in a documentary who was my height and weighed over 190 kg and she dressed beautifully and had make-up on and didn't look ugly at all, but felt very ill) and I don't know why that can't be enough for most people.
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