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Post by spaceflower on Dec 12, 2017 13:15:12 GMT
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Post by tangent on Dec 12, 2017 14:45:42 GMT
In the UK, antisemitism is apparently perpetrated by the white indigenous population, possibly as a result of Brexit. www.thesun.co.uk/news/4281039/jews-leaving-uk-poll-hate-crime/I'm sceptical that Muslims are chiefly to blame (for antisemitism in Sweden). Not in the UK, they're not. There is no suggestion in your first link that Muslims are to blame, sunflower. Do you have any evidence that they were?
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Post by spaceflower on Dec 12, 2017 15:50:00 GMT
Yes, but not in English. There was a Palestinian demonstration against Trump's decision to move the American embassy to Jerusalem. Of course, not all Palistinians are Muslims (a few are Christians) but they all hate Israel and consequently all Jews. Chanting by the protesters in Arabic: "We have declared intifada in Malmö! We want our freedom back! We will shoot the Jews!" "Vi har utlyst intifada från Malmö. Vi vill ha vår frihet tillbaka, och vi ska skjuta judarna." sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=96&artikel=6839254
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Post by spaceflower on Dec 12, 2017 15:57:45 GMT
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Post by Moose on Dec 12, 2017 19:57:03 GMT
I actually have a close Muslim friend and was quite shocked when I talked to him once and realised how anti semitic he was, and that he hadn't heard of the holocaust. He said he was raised that way in Egypt and that was how everyone felt about Jews - though they had no problem with Christians. Happily he was prepared to listen when I told him about the holocaust and the history of anti semitism.
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Post by Moose on Dec 12, 2017 19:58:19 GMT
I suppose the point I am trying to make is, it's easy to be PC - God, did I really just use that term? - and say 'it's not Muslims it's everyone' but there actually IS a lot of antisemitism among Muslim communities. Just because a group is a victim of prejudice themselves does not mean that they cannot be capable of perpetuating it.
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Post by spaceflower on Dec 13, 2017 23:23:51 GMT
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Post by spaceflower on Dec 15, 2017 1:49:18 GMT
This incident made a scandal in Sweden in 2015: A teacher in Swedish language for immigrants (i.e. grown ups) let the students listen to the news. Once piece of news was that it was the anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz concentration camp. According to the teacher one pupil disputed the Holocaust. The teacher said that this was not the time to discuss that. But the pupil continued arguing in a loud voice about the Holocaust and Jews and finally the teacher said to him to be silent or leave the room. The man left the room in a state of anger. Afterwards the teacher was called to the coordinator and the teacher recorded the conversation. The coordinator said that the pupil felt offended, that he had been wrongly accused of being a Holocaust denier and a nazi. The teacher: What he said was Holocaust denial. Coordinator: But he felt unjustly treated and accused of being a Holocaust denier. Teacher: I did not accuse him. I just said that it is not ok to say that all Jews lie. Coordinator: But the class room was not the right forum for this discussion. You must be careful, you have a linguistic advantage and must not derogate the pupils. You must also remember that what we know as history is what we have learned. When we meet pupils who have learnt otherwise in their history books, there is no reason to discuss facts against facts. Afterwards the teacher received a mail from the headmaster which said that he should not take conflicts in the class room. The teacher felt let down by the school management and went to the local newspaper and let them listen to the recording and read the mail. The paper then contacted the headmaster. How should a teacher act if a pupil denies the Holocaust? Has not the teacher the right to contradict?Yes, there are persons who deny the Holocaust. In that case one has to show the facts and reach the person in another way. A teacher has power, to oppress a pupil in front of the group is not good. Do you think that the teacher oppressed the pupil?I don’t know but the pupil felt offended and left the class room in anger. Translated from this article: www.hd.se/2015-02-26/larare-kritiserad-for-forintelsediskussionNow, in this case I am not most indignant about the Holocaust denying pupil (and I assume that he was a Muslim refugee) but about the permissive or should I say submissive school management. Should a teacher never contradict a pupil in front of the rest of the class to not hurt his/her feelings? Or should a teacher never contradict an immigrant pupil, b/c they are especially fragile and must be treated with silk gloves?
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Post by Moose on Dec 15, 2017 20:30:11 GMT
It's a fine line. I think that teachers should ideally keep their own beliefs out of the classroom but the holocaust is not a belief, it is a historical reality. I consider it acceptable, if a pupil - whether they are a refugee or not is irrelevant to me - claims that it never happened, to be able to tell them that they are wrong.
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Yuki
Senior members
Posts: 632
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Post by Yuki on Dec 16, 2017 16:37:51 GMT
I suppose the point I am trying to make is, it's easy to be PC - God, did I really just use that term? - and say 'it's not Muslims it's everyone' but there actually IS a lot of antisemitism among Muslim communities. Just because a group is a victim of prejudice themselves does not mean that they cannot be capable of perpetuating it. I can confirm that as well. In Morocco, the term "Jew" itself is used as an insult (despite the fact that we historically had a large minority of Jews; no wonder that most of them migrated to Israel and the West). The Koran itself is "antisemitic", if you can use that term for a book that was written in a Semitic language by Semitic people, or revealed by God to one of them according to Islamic belief. Perhaps a better term, especially in this context, would be "anti-Jewish". Example: From Quran chapter 5 (Al-Ma'ida - The Table) quran.com/560: Say, "Shall I inform you of [what is] worse than that as penalty from Allah ? [It is that of] those whom Allah has cursed and with whom He became angry and made of them apes and pigs and slaves of Taghut. Those are worse in position and further astray from the sound way." 63: Why do the rabbis and religious scholars not forbid them from saying what is sinful and devouring what is unlawful? How wretched is what they have been practicing. 64: And the Jews say, "The hand of Allah is chained." Chained are their hands, and cursed are they for what they say. Rather, both His hands are extended; He spends however He wills. And that which has been revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase many of them in transgression and disbelief. And We have cast among them animosity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection. Every time they kindled the fire of war [against you], Allah extinguished it. And they strive throughout the land [causing] corruption, and Allah does not like corrupters.
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Yuki
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Post by Yuki on Dec 16, 2017 16:56:09 GMT
Should a teacher never contradict a pupil in front of the rest of the class to not hurt his/her feelings? Or should a teacher never contradict an immigrant pupil, b/c they are especially fragile and must be treated with silk gloves? I think it's quite insulting to people, Muslims included, to treat them like 3-year-olds who might burst into tears or get angry at the smallest offense (unless they're actually 3-year-olds). Migrants should respect the values of their host country, and if they can't, they can go to another country where the social and political values are compatible with their own.
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Post by Moose on Dec 17, 2017 20:25:40 GMT
Depends on what you mean by respecting the values of their host country though. People have the right to follow their own religion, speak their own language, wear their own national costumes. What they do not have the right to do is to try and make everyone do that.
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Yuki
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Post by Yuki on Dec 17, 2017 20:34:22 GMT
Depends on what you mean by respecting the values of their host country though. People have the right to follow their own religion, speak their own language, wear their own national costumes. What they do not have the right to do is to try and make everyone do that. That's what I mean. The core values (democracy, tolerance, individual freedoms, etc) should be respected.
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Post by spaceflower on Dec 21, 2017 23:41:03 GMT
The youngsters who harass Jews in Malmö are from families of Middle East background. The Polish teacher Henryk Grynfeld tells that once his puplis stood outside his class room and chanted “Jävla jude!” (literally “devilish Jew”, but maybe more like “Damn Jew” or “F-g Jew”). Henryk Grynfeld comments: In Poland I was “Damn Jew”. In Sweden I became “Damn Pole”. Now it is back to “Damn Jew”. Once antisemitism was common in Sweden, caricatures of Jews in papers etc. Likewise there is antisemitism in Arabic media. Many Muslims in Malmö listen to the TV-preacher Yusuf al-Qaradawi. He says that the Holocaust was a “divine punishment”. Good willing, their next punishment will be made by the believers (i.e. the Muslims), he said 2009 in the TV-channel Al-Jazira. Henryk Grynfeld told that many of his pupils and their parents watch a lot of Arabic TV. They watch programs which sometimes have the same Jew rethoric as German Nazis had. Syrian TV show tuns with nails in. In the tuns the Jews placed children whose blood would be mixed in the Pesach bread, the TV-channel informed their watchers. The journalist was most affected by this call from an old woman: A 89-year old survivor from the Holocaust was in a school in Stockholm to tell the children about the horrible things she had experienced in Auschwitz and Bergen-Belsen. Suddenly a girl rises. She says to me: You kill Palestine children! Translated from an interview in Dagens Nyheter: www.dn.se/arkiv/nyheter/niklas-orrenius-i-dagens-sverige-visar-sig-hatet-mot-judar-ofta-i-andra-miljoer-an-de-renodlat/
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Post by spaceflower on Dec 22, 2017 0:10:11 GMT
Should a teacher never contradict a pupil in front of the rest of the class to not hurt his/her feelings? Or should a teacher never contradict an immigrant pupil, b/c they are especially fragile and must be treated with silk gloves? I think it's quite insulting to people, Muslims included, to treat them like 3-year-olds who might burst into tears or get angry at the smallest offense (unless they're actually 3-year-olds). Migrants should respect the values of their host country, and if they can't, they can go to another country where the social and political values are compatible with their own. I guess Sweden is an "nanny state". Teachers dare not oppose immigrant children and their parents b/c they are afraid of being accused of and reported for racism. They are also afraid of being assaulted by the teenage male pupils. They cannot defend themselves, b/c a teacher is forbidden to lay a hand on pupuls, if he does, he will certainly be reported to the police for assualting a child.
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