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Post by juju on Feb 15, 2019 8:17:55 GMT
For something called 'Europeforum', it's hilarious that there's been no mention here of the complete fiasco that has been Brexit in the last few months, only American politics.
Thankfully.
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Post by Mari on Feb 15, 2019 9:02:41 GMT
We did talk about it in some places. But really, what else is there to say about this idiocy? And to make it even more idiotic the parliament shot down the best deal they were going to get and sent May back to Brussel to get a better deal which she's never going to get. The biggest mistake the british politicians made imo is overestimate how important the rest of the eu thought them to be to their own economies. In doing so, they overestimated their negotiating strength. Though I must admit I've lost sight of the final goal of the different parties within the UK. Sometimes it looks like some groups are now thinking: it's all going to pot anyway so let's try and break as much as possible on the way out. Really weird.
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Post by tangent on Feb 15, 2019 9:05:41 GMT
There's have been discussions on Brexit here, here and here but apart from acknowledging the awful mess and the disaster that awaits, there hasn't been much attention to it. Looking back, I see that Theresa May's catchphrase for the Conservatives at the last election was strong and stable. Just as strong and stable as her current Brexit deal that was voted down last month by 303 to 258, I guess.
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Post by juju on Feb 15, 2019 9:57:23 GMT
I know there have been discussions in the past, however most of the noteworthy stuff has happened recently but didn't seem to have been mentioned here.
I don't really get on here as much as I used to (my bad) but I was surprised at the fact that American politics seems to dominate this thread when (a) Brexit is just as much of a shit-show and (b) it's Europe related.
But hey, I'm not complaining - from a Brit pov it's nice to see somewhere that Brexit *isn't* dominating!
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Post by JoeP on Feb 15, 2019 11:25:01 GMT
and (b) it's Europe related. Yes ... but rule 1 of Europeforum is not to stay on topic. So discussing European topics is rare!
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Post by juju on Feb 15, 2019 12:28:18 GMT
Right then *rolls up sleeves*
Brexit. Will there be a deal? No deal? Delayed? A second referendum? A general election? Or (wishful thinking) no Brexit and it'll all disappear....?
Place your bets, folks.
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Post by JoeP on Feb 15, 2019 14:05:51 GMT
I predict ... continued chaos and uncertainty for at least 2 more years.
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Post by juju on Feb 15, 2019 14:09:46 GMT
I predict ... continued chaos and uncertainty for at least 2 more years. We'll that's a certainty. But with or without Brexit?
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Post by JoeP on Feb 15, 2019 14:24:10 GMT
That's what I mean, no certainty one way or the other.
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Post by tangent on Feb 15, 2019 18:48:00 GMT
What I would like see is as follows: - The government to fall on a confidence motion
- Labour to form a government in April
- Donald Tusk to agree to extend Article 50 by 3 months
- MPs to be given a vote on: (a) remaining in the EU, (b) a customs union, (c) Theresa May's deal or (d) a no-deal Brexit, and for the results to be in that order
- A people's vote on the top two MPs' choices, that is between remaining in the EU or a customs union and for the result to be remaining in the EU
However, I very much doubt any of that will happen.
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Post by Elis on Feb 16, 2019 17:08:35 GMT
I don't like to think about it. I hate it and it's stupid. Frank got the German citizenship and may lose the British one.
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Post by Mari on Feb 16, 2019 19:48:44 GMT
Whatever happens, I'm quite sure it will not be advantageous for the UK.
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Post by tangent on Feb 16, 2019 20:08:33 GMT
I'm sure you're right. As a consequence, it will be seen as a disaster for the Conservative party, in which case we can look forward to a Labour government at the next election.
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Post by whollygoats on Feb 18, 2019 16:20:15 GMT
1. I hear they are planning to throw you to the wolves....in other words, US corporate contractors. Including NHS.
**facepalm**
That is APPALLING.
2. The latest I've heard is that four Labour MPs bolted to form their own....I dunno, party? What's up with that, and why isn't schismatic activity happening in the controversy-laden Tory ranks, rather than thinning the already too thin ranks of Labour?
ETA: Excuse me, seven Labour MPs have bolted. Um...It really is a shabby time to engage in factionalism.
3. Please....feel free to make yourself feel better, if only for a passing moment, by watching our shitshow and wondering if maybe you didn't get off too bad.
A diversion.
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Post by tangent on Feb 18, 2019 17:43:11 GMT
The latest I've heard is that four Labour MPs bolted to form their own....I dunno, party? Not forming their own party, just leaving the Labour party to become independents MPs. Labour MPs belong to the broad classification of 'liberal mindset', favouring fairness and justice over the Conservatives' structure and order. It may be a really shabby time to engage in factionalism, as you say, but the liberal mindset has been split into Labour, Liberal Democrats, Greens, Plaid Cymru, Scottish Nationalists and Independents for many years. Factionalism is nothing new, which is why the Conservatives have held power for so long. The latest split is being compared to the 'gang of four' who split off from the Labour Party in 1981 and later merged with the Liberal Party to become the Liberal Democrats, see the Social Democratic Party. Interestingly, the four rebels were unhappy with the direction Labour was moving in - namely, to the left - and claimed that "a handful of trade union leaders could dictate the choice of a future prime minister". And that is how both Ed Miliband and Jeremy Corbyn became opposition leaders. Please....feel free to make yourself feel better, if only for a passing moment, by watching our shitshow and wondering if maybe you didn't get off too bad. Brexit is causing me so much angst I try not to think about it too much. American politics is a cause for amusement and is therefore a welcome distraction.
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Post by Moose on Feb 18, 2019 21:42:26 GMT
Honestly, I can't be bothered to talk about it anymore. Whenever I hear the word I involuntarily shake my head and block it off
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Post by whollygoats on Feb 20, 2019 3:20:57 GMT
Interestingly, the four rebels were unhappy with the direction Labour was moving in - namely, to the left - and claimed that "a handful of trade union leaders could dictate the choice of a future prime minister". And that is how both Ed Miliband and Jeremy Corbyn became opposition leaders. So, they left, thereby assuring that handful of trade union leaders (Labour, y'know? Funny, that) actually might dictate such? So? So what if they did? Why is that any worse than a perverse group of misanthropes and xenophobes dictating the same? I heard one of the big time Brexiters has scampered for Monaco, fortune and all....
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Post by whollygoats on Feb 20, 2019 3:24:38 GMT
Please....feel free to make yourself feel better, if only for a passing moment, by watching our shitshow and wondering if maybe you didn't get off too bad. Brexit is causing me so much angst I try not to think about it too much. American politics is a cause for amusement and is therefore a welcome distraction. You're welcome. Have another best bitter while you're at it.
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Post by tangent on Feb 20, 2019 16:04:51 GMT
So, they left, thereby assuring that handful of trade union leaders (Labour, y'know? Funny, that) actually might dictate such? So? So what if they did? Why is that any worse than a perverse group of misanthropes and xenophobes dictating the same? The alternative isn't a perverse group of misanthropes and xenophobes. The local trade union officials that I have met in days gone by have convinced me that (a) they have one and only one aim and that is to strike for more pay even if it isn't remotely justified, and (b) trade union leaders are born to fight, specifically to fight all of those management bastards whose sole intent is to screw the workers. National union leaders are an epitome of that mindset, an example of which is Arthur Scargill in the 1970s. To think that our country might be governed by Arthur Scargill's protégés is horrifying (even though I support Jeremy Corbyn's liberal principals). So, they left, thereby assuring that handful of trade union leaders (Labour, y'know? Funny, that) actually might dictate such? Yes, that's why I won't vote Labour even though I support most of Jeremy Corbyn's liberal principals (though not his affinity towards manhole covers and allotments).
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Post by whollygoats on Feb 21, 2019 0:13:59 GMT
The alternative is the fecking Tories.
Thank you. I served for four years as a lead steward. I served an additional three years as an ordinary steward. I also served as trustee on the local executive board. I've locked horns with more ignorant arrogant asshat managers than you can shake a stick at. Most of them deserve to be shat upon. Your typification is so far from the truth that I can only assume that you were some sort of toady or management wannabe.
As for your attitudes about labor organizers, fuck you. Had it not been for the actions of labor organizers, you would have died decades ago in the halters of whatever deadend job those management bastards thought might kill you faster.
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Post by tangent on Feb 21, 2019 12:09:23 GMT
We each have different experiences. Had you been working in my environment, your experiences would have been very different. And had I been working in yours my attitudes might have been different.
I worked for two companies, for the first 25 years, a large company employing thousands of people. The unions were singularly destructive. Market forces determined pay levels. Only once did the union show their face, they struck for more pay at a time when the company was facing bankruptcy. The company would have folded if the government hadn't bailed them out. I never once met an arrogant asshat manager but I did meet union officials who wanted to fight the 'evil bastards'.
The second company I worked for was a medium sized one employing 50 people, where I stayed for 15 years. Yes, I did become a manager, although I preferred being a technician. For historical reasons, the women were vastly underpaid. One of my first actions as a manager was to negotiate pay rises for them of up to 15%. However, a group of men were in a very different situation. They had spent the previous ten years in devastatingly boring jobs that made them depressed and almost useless. I cried when I found out. So, I changed the structure of their work to make them feel worthwhile and their work more interesting. None of those improvements to pay and working conditions could have been done by the unions. They were only interested in fighting the management bastards. It really hit me in my previous company when a union official became the manager of a department. The philosophy of 'us against them' was dead.
I wish it weren't true but national newspapers have only confirmed my viewpoint. I'd much prefer the Norway model where workers and management work side by side to improve working conditions but that is a pipe dream in today's workforce relations. Maybe Jeremy Corbyn can change things but I have my doubts.
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Post by whollygoats on Feb 21, 2019 13:36:40 GMT
O, please....
Come down from on high to deliver better working conditions for all? How thoughtful of you. Are you sure you have your halo on straight?
Yes, I'm familiar with all your posturing, but the kinds of actions you refer to are always too late and too little. And, way too fucking rare. How long had such unforgivable conditions lasted before the self-appointed saviour came along to improve the working conditions? (Where was the union?) And, I assume that the changes you wrought must have increased productivity sufficiently that the consequent increases in the revenue stream more than offset the pittance of increase in wages, or improvement of working conditions, to the workers, to prevent your being dismissed immediately.
Just because you had such wonderous experiences bringing enlightenment to the unwashed masses does not mean that such were the norm. Anywhere. And, anything 'given' by management can just as easily be taken away, and often is. They didn't call them the 'Dark Satanic Mills' for no reason at all.
It looks as though I guessed right.
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Post by Mari on Feb 21, 2019 18:29:56 GMT
Wg, I can see the point you're trying to make, but could you please be a little less aggressive on tangent as a person whilst doing so? He's been respectful in addressing you as well.
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Post by JoeP on Feb 21, 2019 19:02:28 GMT
Now then, we'll have no such language amongst t' membership of IUMAEF.
I move that this thread adopt a motion calling upon Brother Goat to moderate his language in the furtherance of our goals of mutual support and advancement. Even though Brother Tangent is an admin, he's one of us as well.
Do I have a second? Sister Mari?
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Post by whollygoats on Feb 21, 2019 19:50:17 GMT
Wow...And that's after I self-moderated my own post.
If you think that should undergo redaction, I'd appreciated some guidance as to what it is you think needs to be changed.
Is it the singular use of an emphatic term to accentuate the rarity of certain events? Or, something else entirely?
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Post by Moose on Feb 21, 2019 20:42:22 GMT
*opens one eye and says 'I vote for llamas'. Closes eyes again
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Post by Mari on Feb 21, 2019 21:22:56 GMT
O, please.... I'm sorry, but the kinds of actions you refer to are always too late and too little. And, way too fucking rare. How long had such unforgivable conditions lasted before the self-appointed saviour came along to improve the working conditions? (Where was the union?) And, I assume that the changes you wrought must have increased productivity sufficiently that the consequent increases in the revenue stream more than offset the pittance of increase in wages, or improvement of working conditions, to the workers, to prevent your being dismissed immediately. Just because you had such experiences bringing enlightenment to the unwashed masses does not mean that such were the norm. Anywhere. And, anything 'given' by management can just as easily be taken away, and often is. They didn't call them the 'Dark Satanic Mills' for no reason at all. It looks as though I guessed right. I took the liberty to rephrase your post in a way that I feel still expresses your opinion without the personality touches. I also hope I'm not insulting you by taking your request for clarification literal when you meant it differently. I'm sometimes not very good at reading intentions.
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Post by whollygoats on Feb 22, 2019 0:20:18 GMT
Interesting.
I see what you have done, but, somehow, it ignores the very aspect which sparked my bristling response and which I intended to address most vociferously....the supercilious attitude with which tangent delivered his judgement.
And, note that I refrained from mentioning how well those with 'business backgrounds' do in political situations. Just...just look at our bad precedent; he's a perfect example of when 'managers' try to dabble in politics. I think tangent should be thankful I was as restrained as I was.
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Post by Moose on Feb 22, 2019 0:33:16 GMT
I am lost .. where is the rephrase?
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Post by Mari on Feb 22, 2019 2:31:05 GMT
In the quote, moose.
Wg, the way you said it in your last post is totally non offensive though? Basically for me it's the difference between saying: "I think what you're saying is arrogant bullshit" and "you're an arrogant idiot". The former is about a person's words/actions whilst the latter is about the person. If you judge the person directly you close off all avenues of genuine discussion since you can't look beyond your own opinion anymore (he's an idiot/asshat so his words are not worth listening to (I personally do this with trump if I'm honest) vs he's an intelligent person saying stupid things, if I argue intelligently I may be able to persuade him) which will at some point devolve in mere name calling with no room for sensible arguments.
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