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Post by spaceflower on Jun 13, 2013 0:50:55 GMT
Big Brother sees you. This time Big Brother is FSA/USA: The congressional fury came at the end of a day of fast-moving developments.
• In a lawsuit filed in New York, the American Civil Liberties Union accused the US government of a process that was "akin to snatching every American's address book".
• On Capitol Hill, a group of US senators introduced a bill aimed at forcing the US federal government to disclose the opinions of a secretive surveillance court that determines the scope of the eavesdropping on Americans' phone records and internet communications. www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/12/anger-mounts-congress-telephone-surveillance-programmesThe President promised that "This does not apply to U.S. citizens and it does not apply to people living in the United States."
In a statement, the White House assured Americans that the PRISM program fully legal under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. It’s subject to oversight by congress and the executive branch, making sure only “foreign intelligence” information is collected, and no Americans are targeted.
But that doesn't offer much comfort to America's allies in the European Union.
"I think it is indeed a violation of EU laws," Sophie in 't Veld, a Dutch Member of European Parliament who helped draft the EU's strict data protection laws, told the Daily Dot.
"In principle EU law does not allow for data to be transferred to the US. Companies often find themselves caught between two jurisdictions. They usually prefer to comply with US law, rather than EU law. This way US law effectively takes precedence over EU law, even on EU territory. So far the European Commission has done preciously little to solve the issue of jurisdiction and protect the rights of EU citizens. The Prism story is only one of many of massive US spying on people both inside and outside the US. I hope this case will serve as a wake up call." www.dailydot.com/news/prism-nsa-government-surveillance-europe-law/I guess nobody is really surprised. Every violation against integrity and freedom of speech is excused by "the war on terror". An what will happen to Edward Snowden? Will he be kidnapped to stand trial as a traitor? Needless to say, I'm on the side of the whistleblower's. |
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Post by Miisa on Jun 13, 2013 6:39:08 GMT
To be honest, I don't think it is as big a deal as people make it out to be. I always found the Orwellian idea of people being actively watched all the time impossible, as you would need more watchers than watchees. Of course now you can just record everything and have a computer filter what needs further scrutiny, but again, do I rally care if some computer sees everything I am doing?
Maybe there are really some bad outcomes of this, I just haven't heard them.
Maybe it's just my job as computer admin that has dulled me to that *someone* always *could* know what you are doing at any given time, but even if you *can* see stuff, you don't generally even want to. People get really boring really quick.
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Post by Alvamiga on Jun 13, 2013 7:51:19 GMT
I agree with that. Even if they could monitor everything you do online, anyone with half an ounce of knowledge could avoid detection anyway. The people who advocate such ideas have no knowledge of how things actually work.  XKCD from a couple of days ago.  |
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Post by ProdigalAlan on Jun 13, 2013 10:16:14 GMT
To the best of my knowledge and belief the majority of the laws that are alleged to have been violated were founded on the back of legislation that never really took Internet communication into account. In this country they are founded on the old "wireless and telegraphy" act that dates back to to early 70s and still incorporate the same government ministerial procedures. This act was drawn up to intercept telephone conversations by IRA activists in Northern Ireland.
Well we now live in different times.
We do know, for we have proven cases, that terrorists have used Internet communications extensively.
I care not a jot if some sucker at GCHQ is monitoring my activities on Allan Hitchcock's Royal Enfield website or the "pornogrophy" I access on "World of Triumph" or "East Midlands Superbikes". I do care that my grandchildren grow up in a world that is made as safe as possible for them.
I ask one simple question. Imagine that there are two aircraft being boarded at an airport. One has made no security checks on passengers, there are no restrictions on what you can bring on board and passengers have not had to provide basic identity details. The other uses all the measures we currently use on air travel. Which queue would you want your grandchild to be in?
As unpleasant as it is. We have to live in the world as it exists right now and not dream of some love 'n peace utopia.
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Post by tangent on Jun 13, 2013 10:40:06 GMT
I don't care a jot whether America has been monitoring phone calls and emails of American citizens, although I find it disturbing if the NSA has been doing this without the US government's knowledge because it means they wield power that could be misused both against American citizens and the rest of the world.
Likewise, I wouldn't care two hoots if GCHQ had been monitoring my phone calls and emails if it had permission to do so. I would find it disturbing if they did so without the UK government's knowledge or permission. I know that they don't because the UK parliament has voted not to let them do so.
What I find really disturbing is that the NSA in America has been monitoring my phone calls and emails without my government's knowledge or permission. It isn't the information that they glean that's important but the power they wield that cannot be stopped by any democratic process.
America is fanatical about its freedom of speech (and their guns). Imagine Europe tried to take those away from them. Instead we have America unilaterally taking away our rights to privacy (allegedly), which the UK government has expressly voted to retain.
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Post by ProdigalAlan on Jun 13, 2013 10:47:30 GMT
Yes, if that is proven to be the case that would be a different kettle of fish. Until it is actually proven that a body in the US has hacked EU citizens communications without sanction from an EU government we should not make unproven assumptions.
On the other hand I have no problems with the USA monitoring Somali data. Somalia poses a very real and present threat and has no stable government as such.
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Post by spaceflower on Jun 13, 2013 13:51:32 GMT
"I ask one simple question. Imagine that there are two aircraft being boarded at an airport. One has made no security checks on passengers, there are no restrictions on what you can bring on board and passengers have not had to provide basic identity details. The other uses all the measures we currently use on air travel. Which queue would you want your grandchild to be in?"
What has this got to do with surveillance of internet?
You may be willlingly to trade your privacy and integrity for safety but what right have the FSA to do this to us who don't live in the USA? I don't want to live in a Stasi wrold.
This safety is mostly delusional anyway. With all this information, how will they find the relevant one? Did this surveillance stop the Boston bombning?
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Post by ProdigalAlan on Jun 13, 2013 15:19:49 GMT
Surveillance has certainly stopped many acts of terrorism in the UK. Acting on information, supplied mostly from within the Islamic community in the UK, many acts of terror have been stopped. This is not opinion, these are cases that have been brought to trial and convictions obtained.
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Post by Mari on Jun 13, 2013 16:33:27 GMT
As stated before, we all know everything we do online is accessible to any one with the right knowledge. However, who the hell does the NSA think they are that they assume the right to invade my privacy which is supposed to be protected under Dutch and EU law?
If they indeed do so. But I wouldn't be surprised if they did actually...
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Post by tangent on Jun 13, 2013 17:39:49 GMT
Surveillance has certainly stopped many acts of terrorism in the UK. Acting on information, supplied mostly from within the Islamic community in the UK, many acts of terror have been stopped. This is not opinion, these are cases that have been brought to trial and convictions obtained. If we are to believe William Hague, the UK Home Secretary - and I do - GCHQ have obtained the information that has prevented terrorist acts not by monitoring everyone's phone calls and emails but by selective information requests. That is, they have targeted known terrorist sympathisers. That's a very different matter and I'm all in favour of it. If I were under suspicion, I would not object to my phone being tapped (on the assumption that I'm innocent). What the NSA have done is go far beyond that. So the argument that the British Security Services have stopped several terrorist attacks is an argument against blanket monitoring. |
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Post by Mari on Jun 13, 2013 18:54:39 GMT
What I was concerned about was that in the interview with the whistle-blower guy, he said that the NSA could (and suggested did) use all the information to vilify pretty much everyone they took a fancy to. I'm not sure how serious this comment and the actual practice is, but it is a worrisome thing.
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Post by ProdigalAlan on Jun 13, 2013 21:32:26 GMT
What the NSA have done is go far beyond that. So the argument that the British Security Services have stopped several terrorist attacks is an argument against blanket monitoring. Yes if that is the case then it's a different kettle of fish. But that is merely an allegation, as yet unproven. And, yes, I totally agree blanket monitoring is a total waste of resources. |
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Post by jayme on Jun 14, 2013 1:08:23 GMT
Am I surprised by this? No. But it totally explains why the only time my computer crashes is when I'm having an IM conversation with Yuki. And we stopped trying long ago because it happened every time!
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Post by Alvamiga on Jun 14, 2013 8:12:01 GMT
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Post by Moose on Jun 15, 2013 22:17:42 GMT
Jayme that is interesting ... and a bit disturbing  . I do not much care if people want to randomly dip into my emails or online doings* but I do not know why anyone would be singling out Yuki personally. Could it not just be a dodgy internet connection at his end? *I am currently stuck on level 77 of candy crush ... FBI monitoring agent, please complete it for me! |
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Post by Alvamiga on Jun 15, 2013 22:52:54 GMT
I am sure that anyone in power has been doing this kind of stuff for as long as they have been capable of it, but it was just always kept quieter than this. Personally, I feel that if someone wants to read all my e-mails and so on, then good luck to them, as even I don't find most of them that interesting!  |
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Post by Mari on Jun 16, 2013 16:52:28 GMT
It's a small step from reading your email to changing them. Or using them for their own ends.
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Post by JoeP on Jun 16, 2013 18:45:05 GMT
It's a small step from reading your forum posts to changing them. Or using them for their own forums. Very true ... |
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Post by Alvamiga on Jun 16, 2013 21:48:22 GMT
Personally, I'd have thought they have better things to do. It's already easy enough to fake e-mails and so on without hacking peoples' accounts.
There must be a lot more interesting targets than me!
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Post by jayme on Jun 17, 2013 0:44:14 GMT
Jayme that is interesting ... and a bit disturbing . I do not much care if people want to randomly dip into my emails or online doings* but I do not know why anyone would be singling out Yuki personally. Could it not just be a dodgy internet connection at his end? *I am currently stuck on level 77 of candy crush ... FBI monitoring agent, please complete it for me! I had thought it was just because it was coming from Morocco. Nothing necessarily has to be personal. Hey! I just noticed that Merkin and Merokkin sound a lot alike.  |
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Post by Miisa on Jun 17, 2013 13:55:07 GMT
I suspect I have just been programmed by governments to see it as a good thing, or be surprised that people care, as I really liked Robert J Sawyer's Hominids (where the alternate universe reality had 100% surveillance built in and it seemed to work) and one of my favourite TV shows is Person of Interest  |
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Post by JoeP on Jun 17, 2013 14:11:46 GMT
Pingviini!
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Post by Miisa on Jun 17, 2013 14:27:14 GMT
You sound like a Jawa!
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Post by JoeP on Jun 17, 2013 15:57:50 GMT
Oh I do do I. Well you sound like a Clanger.
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Post by Miisa on Jun 17, 2013 16:41:55 GMT
Well... you smell like a Dalek!!
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Post by Moose on Jun 17, 2013 17:13:45 GMT
Daleks smell of ... blocked sinks
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Post by charliebrown on Jun 17, 2013 18:48:31 GMT
Have difficulty understanding the previous few posts.
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Post by Alvamiga on Jun 17, 2013 19:50:10 GMT
Will the surveillance man please tell me where I left my spare keys?! |
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Post by JoeP on Jun 17, 2013 20:28:37 GMT
With your MOT reminder.
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Post by Alvamiga on Jun 17, 2013 21:00:20 GMT
I found that now, but you slipped up and admitted that you're the surveillance man!  |
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. I do not much care if people want to randomly dip into my emails or online doings* but I do not know why anyone would be singling out Yuki personally. Could it not just be a dodgy internet connection at his end?
