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Post by Mari on Sept 14, 2013 18:58:36 GMT
Hahaha, that's just sad
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Post by raspberrybullets on Sept 14, 2013 19:01:59 GMT
Yeah...Thanks, Mari. "The Veluwe" was the 'hilly country' referenced. 'Hilly' probably means that it is above high tide. That part is probably not totally pancake flat but the tallest hills of the Netherlands are in the south and around 300 meters.
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DGoeij
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Post by DGoeij on Sept 14, 2013 19:15:06 GMT
Yeah, the pic posted by WG is a pretty good indication of the main areas of this Christo-fascist streak that blights my country. The fact that they're muzzled, lack any real power and are mostly confined to small inclusive communities dotted around the less built up areas (of what we have left as such) is a mild consolation. It doesn't make them any less awfully wrong imo. I have no desire to encroach on any of the rights we enjoy in this society, I just know they don't adhere to the same principle when it comes to a large number of my fellow humans on planet earth.
That party, the SGP (look it up on wiki) is their main parliamentary representation. It hovers between 2-3 seats in a 150 seat parliament. At least it keeps them where we can see them. They're not the preachy type in general, but disconcerting as hell (pun intended). No women in their representation. That used to be a strict rule, but they finally lost their government subsidy a few years back so suddenly there was room to change their charters. As most people claiming to have strong principles based on utter bullshit, they will bow to money. I think in one of the local branches of this party their first woman is no electable. We'll see how far she gets and if it will bring some welcome erosion to their power base. No abortion, no marriage equality, no euthanasia, blasphemy laws etc etc. They protested in parliament some time ago against the airing of the movie Deep Throat (no, not about Watergate, the other one) on a public broadcasting network. They have been mockingly called the 'poldertaliban' and while kinda funny and deserved in some respects, I'd say they're far too encapsulated in our parliamentary system and tradition to really pick up the AK-47's any time soon.
Not sure about the party's official stance on vaccination, but I have no desire to trawl through their info, I just ate. I vaguely remember concerns about an outbreak of polio in the south-western region, what I recall for basically the same reason. With the measles outbreak these loving Christians who will happily endanger their children to preventable ailments were a bit more keen on getting the shots, but you know how it works in these close knit communities.. The health services decided to make house visits available and discreetly get more kids protected. It allows parents to play 'scripturally sound' (or whatever) in public while reaping the benefits of heretical medicine behind closed doors. To many people, a very Dutch solution. I mostly agree. Slow corruption through the better society they're enveloped in, beats oppressive measures any day. It does irk me the attitudes will continue to end up endangering and harming children for many years to come (not just medical, imagine growing up gay in that), but we have the health services and safety nets as a wealthy society to deal with it.
From what I recall from history lessons etc, it might have been that their positioning between the generally protestant north and the catholic south has something to do with it, making them the front-line protecting against the papist hordes or something. Historically, the war of independence with Spain was fought over religious freedom and oh yeah... taxes. Personally I think the latter might have mattered a tad more, but religious prosecution in the rest of Europe, especially with regards to the catholic-protestant divide seems to have been a bit worse than over here. Although I do remember that in Amsterdam you can still visit one or two 'hidden' (catholic) churches, from the days when openly catholic wasn't the safest thing to do.
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Post by Mari on Sept 14, 2013 19:22:47 GMT
From your point of view, that's an accurate description. I think their political agenda is usually quite solid and sensible though.
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Post by DGoeij on Sept 14, 2013 19:36:14 GMT
Lacking principles, as in gays are humans too, perhaps. Sorry, equality under the law means something to me.
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Post by Mari on Sept 14, 2013 19:41:29 GMT
I never said they are perfect. And you don't have to agree with all their ideas in order to be able to agree with other things.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2013 6:29:44 GMT
In Germany, they also have problems with parents who don't want their children to get a vaccination. Often, those are parents whose children are in one of the Waldorf-schools, one of these schools had to close for a while recently because of an outbreak of measles. And recently, a boy died who picked up measles as a baby when he was five moonths old, in a doctor's waiting room, from an older child who had measles. The boy was too young to get a vaccination back then. Years later, he got SSPE and died from that this year. The parents are Christians and memebers of one of those evangelical churches, but they were in favour of vaccinations and their son would have gotten one once he was old enough.
The whole not interfering in God's plan seems strange to me as well. I would not even know where that begins - is it interfering in God's plan if I keep my child from running out inti a busy street? And if God is almighty, could we interfere in His plans anyway? God wants a child to have measles and then parents interfere by having their child get a vaccination? I'm pretty sure God could still make the child get measles if He wanted to, that's part of being God and almighty.
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Post by tangent on Sept 22, 2013 7:06:15 GMT
I suppose washing your hands after going to the toilet is also interfering with God's plan. If God wanted me to get diarrhoea, who am I to try and stop him?
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Post by Alvamiga on Sept 22, 2013 7:22:28 GMT
Maybe he would just send you to a foreign country to eat the food there!
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Post by tangent on Sept 22, 2013 7:29:33 GMT
Well, he has done, I'm in the Netherlands but no diarrhoea so far.
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Post by Alvamiga on Sept 22, 2013 7:47:37 GMT
Hah! That doesn't sound overly confident on the outcome!
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Post by raspberrybullets on Sept 22, 2013 8:35:14 GMT
We've been stuffing our faces with food.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2013 5:35:14 GMT
I suppose washing your hands after going to the toilet is also interfering with God's plan. If God wanted me to get diarrhoea, who am I to try and stop him? So that means Christians should just stop washing their hands after having been to the toilet. At that point I might just give up believing. Still, the logic behind this is weird. If someone believes in an almighty God, how can they think at the same time that they will even be able to interfere with His plan?
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Post by tangent on Sept 23, 2013 8:29:53 GMT
Yes, it's all a bit ridiculous.
Coming back to the original idea, that being immunised against a disease interferes with God's plan, we should stop thinking of God as a dictator who rules us with absolute authority and start thinking of him as a father figure who wants the very best for us. The relationship that Jesus taught us is of a father and son/daughter and I'm pretty sure a father would want his son or daughter to be immunised.
As to the idea that we are incapable of preventing an almighty God from carrying out his plan, whilst I believe God is omnipotent, I believe he does allow us to make our own choices. The two are not mutually exclusive.
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Post by juju on Sept 23, 2013 11:31:51 GMT
I have friends who don't believe in immunisation, but they are of the chemtrail-believing alternative lifestyle camp, who are constantly pasting stuff on Facebook about 'Big Pharma' and how how huge corporations control health and medicines, etc.
I couldn't tell you whether anything they say is correct because I'm too lazy to research it myself, but as far as immunisation goes I think they're being really irresponsible.
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Post by whollygoats on Sept 23, 2013 12:58:27 GMT
I have friends who don't believe in immunisation, but they are of the chemtrail-believing alternative lifestyle camp, who are constantly pasting stuff on Facebook about 'Big Pharma' and how how huge corporations control health and medicines, etc. I couldn't tell you whether anything they say is correct because I'm too lazy to research it myself, but as far as immunisation goes I think they're being really irresponsible. Well...hmmm. I earnestly believe in the typification of "Big Pharma" as pernicious and untrustworthy. They are a set of huge corporations which control a lot of what happens in medicine and health and they abuse that privileged position in order to fraudulently line the pockets of their shareholders. The whole 'influenza vaccine' business is a huge negative example. But I base my opinion of the influenza vaccine program upon assessments of the Cochrane Collaborative, a high-profile international non-profit research assessment organization. I heartily recommend immunization for the raft of 'childhood diseases', the vaccines having been repeatedly shown to be effective and reasonably safe. I find the actions of 'Big Pharma' to be reprehensible, because their frauds and manufactured crises have built and reinforced skepticism about other safe, effective, and necessary vaccines.
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Post by Mari on Sept 23, 2013 17:50:01 GMT
In Germany, they also have problems with parents who don't want their children to get a vaccination. Often, those are parents whose children are in one of the Waldorf-schools, one of these schools had to close for a while recently because of an outbreak of measles. I teach at a Waldorf school and some parents of my students are also against it. They are also against things like paracetamol because though it's composed of natural things, it's not actually directly from the earth. Some parents here take biological and natural very seriously. This is reflected in the number of biological shops (both food, clothes and other stuff) we have here.
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Post by juju on Sept 23, 2013 20:25:19 GMT
I have friends who don't believe in immunisation, but they are of the chemtrail-believing alternative lifestyle camp, who are constantly pasting stuff on Facebook about 'Big Pharma' and how how huge corporations control health and medicines, etc. I couldn't tell you whether anything they say is correct because I'm too lazy to research it myself, but as far as immunisation goes I think they're being really irresponsible. Well...hmmm. I earnestly believe in the typification of "Big Pharma" as pernicious and untrustworthy. They are a set of huge corporations which control a lot of what happens in medicine and health and they abuse that privileged position in order to fraudulently line the pockets of their shareholders. The whole 'influenza vaccine' business is a huge negative example. But I base my opinion of the influenza vaccine program upon assessments of the Cochrane Collaborative, a high-profile international non-profit research assessment organization. I heartily recommend immunization for the raft of 'childhood diseases', the vaccines having been repeatedly shown to be effective and reasonably safe. I find the actions of 'Big Pharma' to be reprehensible, because their frauds and manufactured crises have built and reinforced skepticism about other safe, effective, and necessary vaccines. You are probably right, although here in the UK the influenza vaccine is only really available on the NHS to the elderly, asthmatics and those with compromised immune systems. I have a healthy suspicion of huge corporations; I knew people who are medical reps for one of the larger ones and have seen how profit driven they are. However, I do roll my eyes every time one of my FB friends posts yet another headline proclaiming 'Fluoride in water is for mind control / MMRs cause autism / *herb of choice* cures cancer' etc. Maybe some are true, I dunno. But I wouldn't be prepared to take the risk.
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Post by whollygoats on Sept 23, 2013 21:44:10 GMT
However, I do roll my eyes every time one of my FB friends posts yet another headline proclaiming 'Fluoride in water is for mind control / MMRs cause autism / *herb of choice* cures cancer' etc. Maybe some are true, I dunno. But I wouldn't be prepared to take the risk. And rightfully so. I doubt that any of those claims have much truth to them. Fluoride is 'mind control'? Really? I'm not particularly enthused about adding fluoride to the water supply, but I have nothing against anybody who wishes to obtain and utilize fluoride dental treatments. It is readily available everywhere. The local metropolitan school districts make it available at no cost to low-income households. I, myself, spent my first four years in a locale where the tap water was ground water with natural fluoride...at a level thrice that added to most municipal systems...and I've had only three cavities in my lifetime, all in molars (late eruption adult teeth). I don't know of any *herb of choice* which 'cures cancer'. But then, I often get in to wrangles with online types who condemn chiropractic treatment for back pain. Most are Brits who have been exposed to quackery in chiropractic, where practitioners promise all sorts of health benefits beyond effective treatment of back pain. I personally have found chiropractic treatment for back pain to be much more swift and effective than typical medical treatment (which is usually drugs and bed-rest). Then, after listening to the wailing about 'woo' (of which I heartily agree when it comes to homeopathic medicine), I point out that typical medicine, as practiced by M.D. and D.O. types, is also filled with chicanery and woo. Here in the US, a major report of the National Institute of Medicine pointed out that 'iatrogenic disease' (adverse conditions imposed by medical care-givers) is presently in the top five killers of Americans, right up there with heart disease and cancer and far beyond automotive trauma or gunshot trauma. Do we hear about that? No. Quackery is still quite alive and active within the traditional medical profession (which is no big surprise if one just watches television and takes note of all the MDs pushing diets and patent medications)....say something like that and watch all the 'woo accusers' get their undies in a knot. Even when I provide the online access to the report which makes it quite clear.
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DGoeij
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Post by DGoeij on Sept 23, 2013 21:48:55 GMT
So far from what I have read up on the MMR-autism thing, seems to be traced back to a bloke who was mostly trying to stifle the competition for his own variant of a vaccine. That was finally exposed, he disgraced and everything, but the myth continues.
This beliefs (of whatever bullshit sort) over people shit seriously gets on my nerves. That is so far the worst brain rot humanity has been able to come up with, doing continuous, long term and widespread damage since the dawn of time I suspect.
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Post by Alvamiga on Sept 24, 2013 0:00:48 GMT
I always worry when people start rolling out cures on the grounds that they are Natural (with a capital "n"). Strychnine and Uranium can be found naturally, but I don't think they'd cure much by taking them in tablet form! :/
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Post by tangent on Sept 24, 2013 0:39:46 GMT
And also rattlesnake venom.
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Post by Alvamiga on Sept 24, 2013 7:05:02 GMT
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Post by Mari on Sept 24, 2013 17:07:15 GMT
You hope...
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Post by whollygoats on Jul 21, 2014 18:16:13 GMT
It can be shown that one person had complications or problems from a vaccine, but the hundreds it has protected are invisible and all people can see is the downside, unless they think about it more. It is also no consolation to the people who are affected. Yes...There are always potential complications with any kind of invasive therapy and vaccinations are amongst the most invasive there are. Fatalities and lifetime invalidism are realistic possibilities, even if 'rare'. So, I'm guessing that you have no problem with executing innocent people through the capital punishment programs. If you are willing to kill a few children to assure that those thousands who will not react to the vaccine will be protected in the (now rare) event of an outbreak, then you support the uninvolved innocent dying for their community's benefit....just like those few innocent victims who are erroneously convicted by an inadequate and misguided justice system. Is that right? I think this needs another thread....
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Post by Alvamiga on Jul 22, 2014 22:46:51 GMT
I was referring purely to the instances where one person dies due to vaccination in a situation where many more would die without it. There do not have to be outbreaks for that to happen.
It is a no-win situation as making the decision to not administer the vaccine and someone dying because of that choice is still a death related to that decision; it is just a different person dies. The choice really comes down to statistics and chance.
This is not connected to capital punishment from my standpoint. If capital punishment was to be accepted, then the legal system would have to be vastly improved to ensure correct convictions were made. I do not believe we are even close to an acceptably reliable system.
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