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Post by Alvamiga on Nov 23, 2013 18:13:57 GMT
Just been out with Honey for a walk and we were crossing the road at one point, where there was a crossing island. We stopped on the middle section and Honey had sat down at the kerb, ready to cross the second half. A small child ran into the road, arms waving about, generally in the aeroplane position, making squealing noises, directly towards Honey. The kid was not looking directly across the road and continued straight at her. At the last moment, the mother said something to the effect of "be careful, there's a man there with a dog" but it was too late and I don't think the kid was listening anyway. Honey obviously misinterpreted the behaviour as some kind of attack towards us and nipped at the child's arm; I reacted around the same time, but could not get hold of her harness quickly enough to control her movement. Her first nip was enough to get hold of the coat and throw the child a bit of balance and start being hysterical, and then she managed to get a slight hold around the arm before I was able to get her under physical restraint. The child ended up with a set of dents in his skin and I suspect it'll bruise from the pressure, but I don't think there will be any permanent mark. There was certainly no breaking of the skin. The immediate reaction was "you should get that dog put down" but that subsided over the next ten minutes, partly from the fact she immediately then stopped after I controlled her, my reaction and a nearby person they obviously knew spoke to them and told them he had seen us about frequently and had not seen her acting that way before. They phoned the police to report it and, by the time they arrived about 10-15 minutes later, it had gone down to "this is your lucky day, we're not going to press charges." Judging by what I saw of the damage, I doubt they would have had anything to press charges against anyway, but I understand their concern for their child. I spoke to the police officer, who conceded immediately that she didn't appear to be generally dangerous and, after they collected my details, sent us on our way. I may have to give a statement in the next few days, but I don't think anything else will happen as a direct consequence. This all happened about an hour ago now, but I am still shaking. Honey obviously has no idea how close she has come to doing something potentially catastrophic and has scared the crap out of me.
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Post by charliebrown on Nov 23, 2013 18:24:42 GMT
Sorry this happened. I know very little of dogs, but fortunately it's only bruise.
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Post by Moose on Nov 23, 2013 18:33:31 GMT
Tell her from me that she's a very naughty dog.
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Post by Alvamiga on Nov 23, 2013 19:49:41 GMT
She has already had a lecture from me about what a stupid thing she did. She clearly knows I am upset as she has been avoiding me for a while since we got home, but I wish there was some way to convey to her why she needs to not behave that way (no matter what the provocation) and the terrible potential consequences she has had a narrow pass with.
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Post by Kye on Nov 23, 2013 19:57:01 GMT
That's terrifying! Tea had never been aggressive towards kids, but I know that, like all dogs, the potential is there. Thank goodness it wasn't more serious!
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Post by Alvamiga on Nov 23, 2013 20:12:34 GMT
It was only a few days ago that I had been praising her for how much better she is these days after some excellent behaviour around other dogs. Her reaction to other dogs is now much less than it used to be and she has stopped showing such overt interest to other people and trying to be friendly to people who don't want it either. I am feeling very sad and scared about her behaviour. It is not how she reacted that is worrying me as I understand fully why she did what she did, but the fact that it could be so easily triggered by a child behaving in such a care free manner. Honey is usually excellent with kids, except for her tendency to initially get too excited and potentially knock them over with her exuberant behaviour. It may be that I got over-confident in her behaviour and forgot that she still has her survival instincts there and something coming at her at a running speed, making odd noises and flailing about is more likely to trigger her instinctive response than any considered one. I love her very much and the thought of losing her, especially over something like this scares me greatly. I think we have been lucky this time, but things could have gone much more badly in the two seconds this took.
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Post by Moose on Nov 23, 2013 20:53:32 GMT
Frankly yes they could .. you know you have to consider that she could have killed someone. I think you really do need to muzzle her outdoors now.
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Post by Kye on Nov 23, 2013 21:07:43 GMT
Perhaps keeping her close when kids are around would be enough. Just be vigilant.
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DGoeij
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Post by DGoeij on Nov 23, 2013 22:33:30 GMT
Ack. It does seem mostly a defensive nip, but of course small children are both more daft and somewhat more vulnerable around dogs. Poor kid, poor dog really.
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Post by raspberrybullets on Nov 23, 2013 22:35:06 GMT
It's always a scary situation. I remember when our dog Sam was getting near the end of his life and some little pup came bouncing along enthusiastically - the pup was not on a leash but Sam was. Sam got a bit freaked and the owner of the pup came in to take his dog and Sam bit him - the guy actually bled. Sam had never bit anybody before in his life. The guy didn't try anything thankfully but it was completely his own fault as his puppy should have been on a leash. But still scary cos you just never know what the stupid humans will do.
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Post by tangent on Nov 23, 2013 22:58:24 GMT
Honey was behaving very reasonably but the child's parents were not. When a child attacks a dog or behaves as if to attack, it is very reasonable for the dog to act defensibly and ward off the attack with a slight nip. If the parents do not understand this, it is their fault. You should feel no blame.
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Post by JoeP on Nov 23, 2013 23:10:51 GMT
Agree, a slight nip is pretty normal for a dog. But given the way some people - and police and courts - can react nowadays, it's probably a good idea to keep a tighter of hold of her in situations with kids, as you probably would with other dogs approaching. I think you really do need to muzzle her outdoors now. Muzzle her? Is there some history I'm not aware of?
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Post by tangent on Nov 23, 2013 23:12:59 GMT
I think it was sarcastic.
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Post by juju on Nov 24, 2013 0:07:23 GMT
Kizzy is not great with small children. When we first got her she would growl if small children came in the house (thankfuly that was very rarely) - she was clearly scared of them and we used to keep her away, although she ignored them if we were out and about, so it was probably a territorial thing.
She has calmed down a lot now, but I still don't know how she would react in the sort of situation you describe, if a child came straight for her. As we only really walk her off the lead, in fields or woodland, we never encounter any problem like that - she's too busy running around. She loves other dogs though, and wants to play with everything she meets.
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Post by Moose on Nov 24, 2013 1:51:23 GMT
It was not sarcastic. If she can do it once she can do it again.
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Post by Alvamiga on Nov 24, 2013 8:52:19 GMT
The muzzle thing is a real dilemma. I couldn't possibly have had her any closer, she was sat immediately next to me, waiting to cross the road. She was being perfectly well behaved at the time until this happened. I think Tangent is right about Honey's behaviour. She acted the same way she would have done if another dog had gone for her. I think she sees small children to be the same as big dogs. After the nip, she immediately stopped trying to do anything to the child. Even though we were only a few feet away, she was making no attempt to move in that direction. The one thing I find most strange in retrospect is that immediately after, they seemed to be showing more reaction to what Honey had done than my concern for their child. I am not trying to avoid all blame for the outcome, but there are several dogs round here that would have reacted far more forcibly and had there been a car passing when the child ran blindly into the road as he did, that would have been even less forgiving! Ultimately, I hope the family take away the right message from this and don't try to put 100% of the blame on me for what happened.
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DGoeij
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Post by DGoeij on Nov 24, 2013 9:46:47 GMT
Too many people seem too easily to forget that kids (especially young ones) and dogs are simply potentially dangerous situations. You can't really blame a dog for acting like one, ie taking a defensive nip towards an in their eyes misbehaving youngster, nor can you really blame a kid for acting like one ie running around like a headless chicken unaware that not all dogs have a sense of humour about that. Or running into the street uncaring about traffic, which both do. Dogs need as much adult supervision as kids, to protect both from eachother.
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Post by juju on Nov 24, 2013 10:23:32 GMT
Exactly. Dogs behave defensively - if they are startled or frightened they will react instinctively, in the only way they know how. Small children behave erratically and unpredictably, and this can be very unsettling for a dog that is not used to them, and even the apparently gentlest of dogs can get suddenly spooked if they feel threatened. Parents should teach their children to be calm around dogs they don't know, as that dog might be scared of strangers or noise. It's really hard as a dog owner when your dog behaves badly. Of course you feel responsible - I was mortified that Kizzy didn't seem to take to small children (she was fine with older ones - mine were about 8 and 10 when we got her). She never did anything (it only happened once or twice) but she was clearly upset by their presence in the house and giving a warning, which I understood and kept her away - she was a rescue dog so I didn't know her history. She has really calmed down over the years, is totally soppy and friendly to everyone/thing we meet on a walk, but I would probably still put her out if a small child came in the house, just in case. Thankfully we don't know any these days, they've all grown up!
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Post by JoeP on Nov 24, 2013 11:25:27 GMT
and had there been a car passing when the child ran blindly into the road as he did, that would have been even less forgiving! There would still have been calls for the car to be put down. Ultimately, I hope the family take away the right message from this and don't try to put 100% of the blame on me for what happened. Is the dog owner 100% responsible for the actions of the dog? Are the parents 100% responsible for the actions of the child?
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Post by Mari on Nov 24, 2013 12:32:16 GMT
By the sound of it, I doubt more will come of it. It was just the initial fright and if the parents didn't continue to call for blood after only ten minutes, chances are they'll have realised it wasn't just Honey or you.
I don't see why Honey should wear a muzzle just because of this. Things like this happen. When we walk our dong, we always warn kids to stay away and let them approach only slowly if they really want to pet him. As a dog owner you have the responsibility to train both dog and people around how to deal with your dog. However in this case there obviously was no time to do so. It happens and Honey behaved really well, stopping the biting as she did.
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Post by Alvamiga on Nov 24, 2013 13:44:31 GMT
Police called a short while ago. They are not going to pursue anything. The mother seems to have been more level-headed about what has happened and they have accepted that it was a reaction to the child's activity, rather than any underlying viciousness on Honey's part. Turns out the kid had a little bit of grazing, even though Honey did not even rip the jacket, so he has had a tetanus booster shot, but otherwise seems unharmed.
The officer I spoke to says that from what information they have, he cannot suggest anything I could have done to directly avoid it (Honey was on the lead, and so on).
I was surprised to find out that they actually have a dog themselves.
I am relieved to have got an official decision on things, but not as happy as I'd have been for it to not have occurred in the first place, obviously.
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Post by Mari on Nov 24, 2013 13:54:40 GMT
But at least you don't have to worry anymore about Honey maybe having to be put down.
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Post by Alvamiga on Nov 24, 2013 13:57:42 GMT
I think it was pretty clear yesterday that that would not happen, but I have lost a large chunk of faith that I had in her. We went to the pet shop earlier and I was constantly on edge, especially when a small girl (also on a lead) shouted "doggy" and started advancing towards her.
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Post by Alvamiga on Nov 24, 2013 13:58:47 GMT
It did not help that there were an unusual number of children at the per shop today as, a couple of doors down, "The Real Santa" was appearing at Home Bargains.
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Post by tangent on Nov 24, 2013 14:18:01 GMT
It seems you have done as much as you can reasonably be expected. There are many breeds of dog who would behave in exactly the same way. You either get rid of all dogs or accept that children need to be taught not to behave aggressively towards them. It doesn't sound to me as though Honey is even slightly dangerous.
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Post by Alvamiga on Nov 24, 2013 14:28:34 GMT
Maybe slightly... How about getting rid of all children?
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Post by tangent on Nov 24, 2013 14:32:10 GMT
How old was the child, do you think?
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Post by JoeP on Nov 24, 2013 14:44:14 GMT
a small girl (also on a lead) Sensible parents!
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Post by Alvamiga on Nov 24, 2013 17:37:22 GMT
I am not good with kids' ages, having no frame of reference. I see kids of all ages, but don't know how old they are usually.
My best guess would be 5-ish; certainly less than 10.
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Post by Mari on Nov 24, 2013 18:27:58 GMT
Haha, that's quite a gap! But really, I think you should treat it as a fluke, not as something that could happen again at any time. The mor ekeyed up your are about it, the more Honey will feel your stress and get stressed herself and more likely to react.
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