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Post by spaceflower on Nov 29, 2013 0:20:12 GMT
What do you think about it? www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24767225Somehow I did not picture Germany to be the first country in Europe to do so. Australia did it in 2011, New Zealand in 2012. As far as pass port applications go, I don't know if parents are allowed not registering their babies as M of F.
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Post by Moose on Nov 29, 2013 1:28:16 GMT
It seems fair to me as long as it is ONLY being done in the case of babies who are intersex, and not because the parents have decided for some reason that they are going to raise their child with no specific gender.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2013 9:19:36 GMT
It seems fair to me as long as it is ONLY being done in the case of babies who are intersex, and not because the parents have decided for some reason that they are going to raise their child with no specific gender. That's what I think as well. And for those born with both, it does make sense.
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Post by tangent on Nov 29, 2013 15:41:02 GMT
Yes, I agree. As many as one in 2,000 people have characteristics of both sexes, so it is not at all rare. In a town the size of Marple, there will be around 12 people who had an indeterminate sex at birth. Some Indian languages, for example Sanskrit, have always recognised a third gender and the Hijra community have campaigned for formal recognition as a third gender. In 2005, Indian passport application forms were updated with three gender options: M, F, and E (for male, female, and eunuch) and in 2009, India agreed to include a third gender in voting rolls and voter identity cards ( Wiki).
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2013 8:33:51 GMT
I read it is even 1 in 500 people.
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Post by tangent on Dec 2, 2013 12:32:19 GMT
Yes, I think that 1 in 2000 was a cautious figure.
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Post by juju on Dec 2, 2013 16:51:04 GMT
Not quite the same subject, but I was on the bus this morning with a couple - he/she was quite unusual looking: well over 6' tall, very male face (looked a bit unshaved, even) long hair, pink hat, mini skirt, thin tights, high heels. The girl he/she was with was quite plain in comparison. They were clearly a couple, but I wonder how usual they are? I thought transgender (male to female) were usually interested in men. But then I guess he/she could have been like Eddie Izzard, who is a cross dresser but still very male and interested in women. Anyway they made a change from all the old ladies getting on the bus in rural Wales!
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Post by Kye on Dec 2, 2013 16:58:36 GMT
I know of several transgendered lesbians, which I always found a bit mystifying. If you're going to like girls, why not remain a boy...? But I'm sure it's way more complicated that that.
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Post by Mari on Dec 2, 2013 17:49:41 GMT
The point about transgenders, is that they feel they were born in the wrong body, right? So they change from boy to girl, because they feel they are girls who happen to be lesbian and happen to be born in the wrong body. Correct me if I'm wrong though.
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Post by Kye on Dec 2, 2013 18:25:05 GMT
That sounds about right, from what I've heard.
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Post by Moose on Dec 2, 2013 23:07:30 GMT
I think Mari has it right ... it's apparently feeling that you were simply born the wrong gender and sexuality is not an issue (ie, a transsexual can be either gay or straight and that is not influenced by their own genitalia but how they feel that they are).
I have a fair amount of sympathy for transgender people. What worries me tho is hearing stories about very young children who identify as trans, and some of whom apparently have hormone treatment to prevent puberty in the gender they were born in. I am not entirely sure that that's a good idea tho obviously I have never personally experienced it. Certainly I do not think that anyone should be permitted to have surgery until they are legally an adult at least.
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Post by tangent on Dec 2, 2013 23:40:55 GMT
I find it all very confusing. I know the theory, a girl feeling trapped inside a boy's body but I cannot imagine what it's like.
As a child, I often felt more comfortable mixing with girls rather than boys but that was because I was bullied by the boys in my class and I grew up neither trans sexual nor gay.
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Post by Mari on Dec 3, 2013 19:23:13 GMT
I rather doubt you growing up as either (or neither) will have anything to do with the company you keep as a kid
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Post by tangent on Dec 4, 2013 2:04:09 GMT
I'm not suggesting keeping the company of girls would have influenced my gender, rather an indication of what I might want it to be. But in any case I have never felt the slightest inkling to be anything other than who I am.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2013 9:15:28 GMT
What worries me tho is hearing stories about very young children who identify as trans, and some of whom apparently have hormone treatment to prevent puberty in the gender they were born in. I am not entirely sure that that's a good idea tho obviously I have never personally experienced it. Certainly I do not think that anyone should be permitted to have surgery until they are legally an adult at least. One girl here, Kim, who used to be a boy named Tim, had surgery at age 16, I think, but had a lot of appointments with psychologists and doctors to make sure it was really what she wanted. I sometimes worry it might turn into some sort of trend where kids feel like they are not supposed to identify as either. I have never ever been unhappy with being a girl and never wished I could be a boy or felt like a boy. There might have been aspects of being a girl that I used to struggle with, but those were different problems. After all, a lot of people are still born being clearly the one or the other. My cousin told me a few years ago she felt like a boy and felt wrong in her body. She had been taken to the doctor because, at age 15, she still hadn't had her menstruation. It turned out she had too much testosterone. She got hormones, but they must have taken a while to kick in. When she was 18, she was suddenly in love with a boy (she used to think she was lesbian) and felt absolutely fine with being female, so in her case it was the hormones and that disappeared.
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Post by tangent on Dec 8, 2013 11:04:01 GMT
It is a relatively new concept for society to come to terms with and for medical staff to accommodate. It wouldn't surprise me if mistakes have happened in the past.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2013 23:21:46 GMT
It is a relatively new concept for society to come to terms with and for medical staff to accommodate. It wouldn't surprise me if mistakes have happened in the past. From what I have heard, in the past parents could just decide, when a child was born being both, if they wanted a girl or a boy annd then the doctors did the surgery.
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Post by tangent on Dec 12, 2013 23:38:22 GMT
Ugh, that's dreadful.
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Post by Alvamiga on Dec 13, 2013 8:49:28 GMT
That just screams of ignorance! There is also a lot of abortion in some countries to "select the right gender".
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Post by spaceflower on Dec 14, 2013 3:54:20 GMT
I wonder about toilets and shower rooms.
A person who "felt like a woman" but obviously looked like a man, was denied going to the ladies' and went to the Discrimination ombudsman. S/he'll probably get a sum of money.
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Post by Alvamiga on Dec 14, 2013 9:47:45 GMT
I know that from a legal standpoint that someone who is classified as a man has to use the men's toilet, but I suspect something of note would have to happen for anyone to get prosecuted for it. It's a very grey legal area though. The people who made the laws obviously didn't take that kind of thing into account.
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