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Post by Moose on Nov 26, 2016 21:23:59 GMT
I am ashamed to say that I didn't actually realise he was still alive . My general impression of him is a negative one though it's not a region or a period that i know a great deal about. What do others think?
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Post by tangent on Nov 26, 2016 22:09:42 GMT
A different image of Fidel Castro. Before the revolution, he was seen on the world stage, clean shaven and wearing a suit. I don't know an awful lot about him but the Cubans loved him and have a lot of respect for him.
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Post by Moose on Nov 26, 2016 22:31:58 GMT
Only the ones still in Cuba.
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Post by Kye on Nov 26, 2016 22:44:33 GMT
When I was in Cuba, he seemed to be seen as the hero of the oldies. The young people were enamoured of the idea of Capitalism and the American dream.
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Post by tangent on Nov 26, 2016 22:57:30 GMT
I believe Raul Castro (his brother) is slowly introducing capitalism. Young people may dream of the US but actually become Mexico.
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Post by jayme on Nov 27, 2016 21:17:11 GMT
He tried to get the USSR to nuke us, so I do not care for him much.
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Post by tangent on Nov 28, 2016 0:44:17 GMT
He was talking of self defence in the face of the very real threat of an American invasion. It was not an offensive action, his country was facing the threat of annihilation.
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Post by Moose on Nov 29, 2016 1:53:49 GMT
Hmm well. Cuban Missile Crisis? That could have seriously fucked up the US.
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Post by tangent on Nov 29, 2016 7:36:29 GMT
America was preparing for war, that could have messed up Cuba too.
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Post by Kye on Nov 29, 2016 13:15:54 GMT
I think Castro was a multifaceted leader. Good in some ways for some people and horrible for others. This is true for every leader, even every person. I don't know why this is such a stretch. We're all multifaceted. Heavens, even my cats are multifaceted!
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Post by Moose on Nov 30, 2016 0:19:55 GMT
Steve - but Cuba allowed Russia to be their own missiles on Cuban soil - I can see how the Americans were annoyed by that. All said though it's not a period i am really very familiar with.
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Post by tangent on Nov 30, 2016 1:13:50 GMT
I can see that America had plenty to be annoyed about.
This is my hazy understanding of the situation. Individual Americans owned Cuba, and Cubans were virtual slaves, in many respects. The Cuban revolution changed that so Cubans owned Cuba. America was not pleased. America invaded Cuba - the Bay of Pigs - to take back Cuba. Cuba was legally theirs, because rich American landowners had bought the land but the Cubans revolted because they thought that was unjust. America threatened to respond with such might that Cuba would have been annihilated and Cubans would once again be virtual slaves. Cuba defended itself with the only ally available, the USSR. I think that was morally defensible.
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Post by Moose on Nov 30, 2016 22:08:14 GMT
I am not sure that any nuclear warfare is ever morally defensible but yes, certainly I can see that the US did not conduct itself brilliantly.
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Post by tangent on Dec 1, 2016 0:05:03 GMT
I agree but you have to look at the backdrop in the early 1980s. Reagan had begun a trillion dollar arms build-up, called the Soviet Union “an evil empire” and ordered scores of atomic detonations under the Nevada desert as a means of developing new arms. Some Reagan aides talked of fighting and winning a nuclear war. Many world leaders believed all out nuclear war was a distinct possibility and both the US and the USSR considered a nuclear first strike. The Soviets did so because they reasoned nuclear war was inevitable and on 26 September 1983, a false alarm nearly triggered such an event.
We can barely conceive of nuclear war today but in 1983, it was a logical option for many world leaders, and one that many countries would have considered.
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Post by Moose on Dec 1, 2016 1:31:57 GMT
Well yes. But the Bay of Pigs and Cuban Missle Crisis were decades before that.
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Post by tangent on Dec 1, 2016 22:23:15 GMT
Yes, true, I got the wrong decade. Nevertheless, the cold war lasted over forty years and for much of that time nuclear war was a real possibility. I don't excuse Castro's intentions in the slightest but merely point out that it was not uncommon attitude.
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Post by Moose on Dec 3, 2016 0:03:23 GMT
On another note I gather that the Candian PM has alienated himself from the leadership community by praising Castro. Thoughts?
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Post by whollygoats on Dec 17, 2016 18:39:28 GMT
I'm going to back tangent here...Cuba did what they could under the circumstances and used the tools available at hand...the Soviets.
The Soviets used the Cubans to make their point...about Turkey.
Which, I note, not a single person has mentioned in this thread. The whole Cuban Missile Crisis was brought about by the US attempt to invade Cuba in the Bay of Pigs Incident and the US installing mid-range nuclear missiles in Turkey....Obviously aimed at the Soviet Union.
Yes, the Soviets had to remove the missile sites and retrieve the weaponry on its way to Cuba, but they also got the removal of the US missile sites in Turkey as a quid pro quo. Nobody on 'our side' ever mentions the already existing nuclear threat to peace posed by the United States and that the siting of Soviet-made missiles in Cuba was a direct confrontation of aggressive American policy.
Of course, the siting of mid-range missiles in nearby nations soon became a moot issue, with the introduction of MIRV'd ICBMs.
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Post by whollygoats on Dec 17, 2016 18:44:18 GMT
On another note I gather that the Candian PM has alienated himself from the leadership community by praising Castro. Thoughts? What 'leadership community'?
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Post by Moose on Dec 17, 2016 20:23:35 GMT
The other leaders in the world
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Post by whollygoats on Dec 17, 2016 21:13:14 GMT
Yeah? Like the Chinese? Were the Chinese alienated? Or the Russians? Argentina? Venezuela? Indonesia? India?
I think someone rather wants you to think that he alienated somebody important, but, for the life of me, I'm not clear on who. The sitting US president opened diplomatic channels while Castro was still alive...with Castro's brother as acting dictator. I'm having trouble picturing Obama caring what Justin thinks about Fidel. I mean, it's no secret that the Canucks have been chummy with Cuba for decades. And the incoming moron...he's probably desperately angling to get a Trump phallus built in Havana.
So, I'm left still trying to figure out just who these 'other leaders of the world' are from whom Justin 'the Hunk' has alienated himself by saying nicey about Fidel.
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Post by Moose on Dec 18, 2016 4:19:20 GMT
Dude, take a chill pill. When do you think was the last time I actually thought deeply about something before saying it?
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Post by kingedmund on Jan 22, 2017 15:59:34 GMT
That's an interesting history lesson.
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Post by whollygoats on Jan 23, 2017 2:19:19 GMT
Dude, take a chill pill. When do you think was the last time I actually thought deeply about something before saying it? I dunno. When was it?
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Post by whollygoats on Jan 23, 2017 2:21:09 GMT
That's an interesting history lesson. I'll bet you knew absolutely nothing about the US missiles based in Turkey and targeted at the Soviet Union, right?
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