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Post by Moose on Nov 5, 2017 21:02:00 GMT
Keep shooting people, Americans. Keep ignoring the problem. Keep saying that if the victims had been armed things would have been 'different'.
Good God.
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Post by Miisa on Nov 6, 2017 11:20:30 GMT
Although I am in favour of gun control, I doubt it will actually do as much much to help this problem at this point as people hope. Just like investing in supportive mental health care more would, gun control will help a bit more in the normal, everyday shootings and suicides that make the underlying statistics so very very bad, but ultimately the mass shooting issues lie a lot deeper and have to do with the way the whole society now views such happenings. There are countries that have nearly as many firearms as the US, but the underlying attitude towards them is generally different. That said, mass shootings and mass attacks in general are on the increase everywhere.
It seems odd to say, but at this point the shootings and other attacks are actually contagious mind viruses that spread more with increased exposure and public horror. People everywhere have always had moments depression and pain, but generally in other counties and also in the past in the US, that was dealt with differently, right now dealing with it by killing lots of other people is a visible and viable option that therefore comes to mind for some of these people. It is an extreme form of the "suicide by cop" phenomenon that has also been increasing in the US over the past few decades, and which in itself has another unfortunate side effect in that the risks towards police officers are ever more real, meaning they are quick to shoot first in fear of their lives. The concept of "going down in a blaze of glory" is pretty deep-rooted in the American psyche.
People want easy answers, though, and this is so much more complicated. Taking gun control steps would help, however, even if it is just first aid. The sheer number of weapons out there at the moment means that it would likely be a generation or even two before even a total ban would have much effect. The US is famously no longer one for planning decades ahead, so people would quickly claim it isn't working if it was tried.
Oh, and arming the victims would only lead to crossfire cases and confusion with the police shooting anyone armed, so putting guns in the hands of essentially untrained civilians in such situations seems like a monumentally terrible idea.
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Post by Mari on Nov 6, 2017 16:02:14 GMT
Thank you. That is a very good post.
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Post by Alvamiga on Nov 6, 2017 16:59:25 GMT
Totally agree with what Miisa said! The underlying problems of hatred and fear are what needs to be addressed at the core but, that said, having guns lying about everywhere certainly doesn't help when someone's having a "bad day" and has an instant opportunity to use one!
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Post by Moose on Nov 6, 2017 18:43:39 GMT
Miisa yes, that is an excellent point. To an extent I think these things are perpetrating each other .. with each attack that happens someone else, somewhere in the US, will be planning a bigger and better one.
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Post by ceptimus on Nov 6, 2017 23:55:32 GMT
Gun laws were fairly recently tightened in Australia and there has been a big drop in the number of mass shootings there since. The way it worked to quickly reduce the number of guns in circulation was via an amnesty where you could sell guns to the police at market value - and the police then destroyed them. It was reckoned to reduce the number of long guns in the country by 50% over a few years. Cost the taxpayer billions of course - but mass killings cost money too.
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Post by ceptimus on Nov 7, 2017 13:50:37 GMT
Someone linked to this video in a thread on the freethought forum
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Post by Moose on Nov 7, 2017 21:19:29 GMT
There seems to be a school of thought that says that gun control can't be enforced. Yes, it can.
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Post by tangent on Nov 8, 2017 13:15:48 GMT
Replying to the opening question, no it's not the right time to talk about it because America is evenly split (49:51) between gun rights and gun control.
And although 90% of Americans want universal checks on the purchase of guns (Politifact), "Seventy-six percent of Republicans told Pew this year that protecting Americans’ gun ownership rights is more important than gun control, while just 22 percent of Democrats said the same."
So, with a Republican Congress, now is definitely not the right time to talk about it.
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Post by Shake on Nov 8, 2017 13:37:23 GMT
Replying to the opening question, no it's not the right time to talk about it because America is evenly split (49:51) between gun rights and gun control. And although 90% of Americans want universal checks on the purchase of guns (Politifact), "Seventy-six percent of Republicans told Pew this year that protecting Americans’ gun ownership rights is more important than gun control, while just 22 percent of Democrats said the same." So, with a Republican Congress, now is definitely not the right time to talk about it. I've heard that even a majority of NRA members support universal background checks. Their leadership may think differently, however, and they're probably the ones lobbying Congress to not do anything about this. There were lots of state and local elections yesterday across the country and Democrats and progressives made some big gains, so it's possible to see some lower level changes made. In a year from now when 88% of Congress is up for re-election, we may well see some more changes.
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Post by juju on Nov 8, 2017 18:11:52 GMT
Mail on Sunday's Dan Hodges said this two years ago: 'In retrospect Sandy Hook marked the end of the US gun control debate. Once America decided killing children was bearable, it was over.' It's even more true now.
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Post by Moose on Nov 8, 2017 21:13:09 GMT
Something sensible from the Mail - who woulda thought it?
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Post by Alvamiga on Nov 9, 2017 22:19:18 GMT
Gun rights and gun control are not mutually exclusive. The main thing that is needed first is to get rid of these assault rifles, huge magazines, full automatic (and bump stocks) and the like.
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Post by Moose on Nov 10, 2017 20:24:31 GMT
Preaching to the choir here, sigh. I don't know why it's not obvious to everyone.
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Post by Shake on Nov 17, 2017 14:26:51 GMT
*sigh* Yet another school shooting. I was wrong when I said on FB that the mainstream media wouldn't cover this, as evidenced above. The wife seemed shocked that I thought it wouldn't get major coverage. "It was at a school," she said. Well, what about the 200+ other school shootings which have happened since Sandy Hook? The quote in juju's post above totally nailed the issue. So sad.
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Post by Moose on Nov 17, 2017 19:48:55 GMT
Yeah I read this the other day. He could have done a lot more damage than he actually did but I don't suppose that's much comfort to the families of the dead.
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Post by whollygoats on Nov 18, 2017 2:44:22 GMT
*sigh*
I am an American who was raised in the 'American gun culture'. I know what a Herter's catalog is. I know how to reload. I know where to get primers and powder.
So do millions of other Americans.
I was raised to think of guns, rifles in particular, to be tools. Dangerous tools. My father was an instructor of 'hunter's safety', which was gun safety.
I walked away from that when I repeatedly witnessed other 'hunters' in the woods consuming alcoholic beverages with gun in hand.
I am frankly pretty pessimistic about any sane turnabout in affairs regarding Americans and their firearms. They have been told a false narrative for most of my lifetime and think that they are entitled to way too much firepower. The promises of the Second Amendment CAN be fulfilled AND all those limitations Alvamiga recommends (and more!) could very well be implemented without abrogating the Constitutional amendment. Citizens will still retain the right to bear arms....just very limited types of arms. And, they will need to be registered arms, safely stored from theft and untrained hands.
I am not positive about getting to that point without portions of the American populace deciding to fatally take matters in to their own hands. Sizeable possible portions who have been brainwashed by the continuing false narrative about how "the gubmint gonna come take ar guns" and will claim that restrictions and regulation of firearms is "tyranny".
Superb post, Miisa. Your final point needs to be pointed out to Americans all the time. All too many of them think that if everybody has a gun, everybody will be protected. I see quite the opposite. Curiously, anybody who has done combat time in the military knows immediately the cost of being an 'unknown firearm wielder', it's all the untrained bozos who watch too much action television and cinema who are the danger.
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Post by Moose on Nov 19, 2017 23:32:42 GMT
That's the problem, yes ... any type of regulation would be political suicide for whomever suggested it and might have rather unpleasant recriminations. But I think it should still be attempted. Saying 'people will do it anyway so let's not mess with it' is a load of crap.
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Post by Alvamiga on Nov 20, 2017 12:46:22 GMT
It'd also take a lot of people to throw themselves on their swords to get it all the way through. With so much money bound up in it, it's never going to be more than microscopic steps!
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