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Post by spaceflower on Mar 22, 2016 16:35:45 GMT
It is logickal, since Brussels is "the capital of EU". www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35869985People going to work on the metro, foreigners going home for Easter. This is we have to expect, whenever we travel, go on concert, on café etc. We will never feel safe again. For every terrorist who is taken by the police, there are two new.
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Post by Mari on Mar 22, 2016 21:36:36 GMT
I think you're exaggerating a bit. Yes, it's awful, yes, it will probably happen again and yes you don't know where or when, but will you really let that change your life and live in fear? Biologically speaking that's not even possible. These are acts by a few individuals, loosely connected to is and likely not connected to each other. For every one that is able to execute their misguided and horrible plans, dozens are apprehended or even deterred before getting to that point. They are scary because of their guerilla tactics, but so far many of these attacks were flawed, devastating as they were. The chances of dying in a terorrist attack are still much smaller than of dying in traffic.
All that said: I feel for all those affected by these heinous attacks and I will think of them in my prayers.
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Post by raspberrybullets on Mar 23, 2016 9:13:45 GMT
Yes, I think it's horrific, but ultimately the act of terrorism is to instil fear and they win if we let it. I think when it happens we all get a bit scared, but after a few days or weeks we're back to normal business even in the cities where these attacks have happened.
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Yuki
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Post by Yuki on Mar 27, 2016 18:27:49 GMT
These are acts by a few individuals, loosely connected to is and likely not connected to each other. Actually, Islamic terrorists are rather well connected to each other, through radicalization networks primarily, families, and terrorist organizations themselves, and it's through these connections that many of them are apprehended before they cause any damage. Of course, there are also those who get radicalized through propaganda videos and other media in their own private homes, but they most often seek support from a terrorist network before they try to make an attack (they'd still need logistic support, weapons or explosives, someone to teach them how to use them, etc).
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Post by spaceflower on Apr 9, 2016 16:35:59 GMT
Since it happens so often, it is not possible to forget. The fear of flying is growing. Better to stay home. It can happen any day. Of course, I can be run over by a car any day too. But what scares me is the shear hatred. Some people hate us (western people) so much that they want us dead; man, woman, child, they don't care.
There is at least one Swedish terrorist shot down by police in Brussels and another one arrested. There are at least two Swedish women dead by the attacks in Brussels. We have Swedish jihadists who have returned from IS. It is not a question if but when we will have an attack in Sweden too.
And these terrorists are also a reason for countries not to receive any refugees. Let Germany and Sweden do it! Those jihadists are not refugees themselves but may be children to former refugees.
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Post by Moose on Apr 9, 2016 19:38:35 GMT
It is very difficult, I know, to tell who is absolutely desperate for sanctuary because their countries (such as Syria) are in such a dreadful state and people who see the Syrian situation as an excuse to jump on a bandwagon. I wish I knew something sensible and realistic to suggest as a solution but I simply don't. I think it's wrong to turn our backs on the genuine refugees - these people have suffered terribly. But I don't want my country flooded with jihadis anymore than anyone else does
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Post by Mari on Apr 9, 2016 21:20:09 GMT
Personally I'd rather take that risk than leave all those people out in the cold. If the situation were reversed, I'd not want to have to hang on and stay with lots of people in a glorified tent, not allowed to work or be useful, just waiting for someone else to decide my fate. From what I understand, the refugees themselves know quite well who's a terrorist and who isn't. Dutch immigration officers said the chances of someone slipping through the bets are quite small. Moreover, we have more to fear of people who already have our own nationality but feel disheartened by economic and ethnic discrimination and turn to extremism to find purpose once again. That is something we as a nation can control. Though there will always be nutters who do it for kicks or other reasons.
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Post by tangent on Apr 9, 2016 22:30:52 GMT
Yes, I fully agree.
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Post by Moose on Apr 9, 2016 23:02:23 GMT
I agree to a large extent but I am not sure that it's true that it's impossible for jihadis to slip through the net. Unfortunately, it is
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Post by Mari on Apr 10, 2016 10:28:14 GMT
I didn't say impossible, I said that the immigration people said the chances are small
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Post by spaceflower on Apr 11, 2016 22:45:51 GMT
Osama Krayem went to fight for IS and returned to Europe (but not to Sweden) as a Syrian refugee with a false Syrian passport. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_KrayemI hope he rots in a Belgian prison, but I guess we're stuck with him in Sweden and have to support him in a Swedish prison. I'd say he is a typical Swedish terrorist. His parents were received as refugees, he grew up in a suburb with many immigrans, went to Swedish school, the authorites in Malmö helped him t get a job and this is how he repays us. This is the reason many people are hostile to Arab refugees. I predict the Swedendemocrats (populist anti-immigrant party) will win more votes in next elecetion.
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Post by Mari on Apr 12, 2016 6:20:21 GMT
Seriously? This is one man! How many has Sweden taken in over the years? And not to be mean, but I've seen the circumstances of those refugees in a documentary on TV. They really aren't much better than in Parisian suburbs, or indeed some Dutch ones. They are discriminated against and the jobs the state helps provide are generally those no one else wants to take. No offence, but as long as we keep treating these people as second class, some of them will consider it a reason to join a radical group or join a gang or whatever, like you see in the USA.
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Post by tangent on Apr 12, 2016 8:28:28 GMT
Yes, I agree, it is far better to overwhelm refugees with kindness and then they won't want to become terrorists. Moreover, they are more likely to influence young people with Syrian roots and stop them becoming home grown radicals.
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Post by raspberrybullets on Apr 12, 2016 10:04:17 GMT
Most of the threats of terrorists here have been "homegrown". The best response is not to incite more fear and hatred as that is what leads to young people feeling disenfranchised and joining terrorist groups.
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Post by tangent on Apr 12, 2016 10:15:40 GMT
One of the best ways of inciting fear and hatred is to bomb their country. We could start with trying not to do that.
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Post by spaceflower on Apr 12, 2016 13:20:46 GMT
Well, I read so much hatred against these immigrants on the internet. They are ungrateful, they only cost money and don't contribute to society, the boys don't want to study hard, make trouble and frighten teachers and other pupils, they look up to criminals, they soon are criminals themselves, they commit group rapes (every time there is a group rape, the suspects are of foreign origin) b/c they don't have any respect for Swedish girls/women (they consider them whores), the refugee "boys" from Afghanistan are reallly "beard children" (i.e. older than 18 years). One refugee who was to be sent from Sweden took his revenge by killing a total unknown mother and her son on Ikea, a girl employed on a refugee home as knifed to death etc. And every time one protests "not everyone" the answer is "too many anyway" or "there are Swedish criminals too" the answer is "we have enough of domestic criminals, we don't have to import anyones".
Many refugees don't get any jobs. Maybe b/c they don't speak good enough Swedish or maybe b/c discrimation. Whichs leads to more discrimination "how many of these khat-chewing goodfornothings are we to support". The feeling is "we took you in when other countries did not, and now you pay back with criminality. You are an ungrateful bunch".
About 300 young men have travelled to IS from Sweden. They return, maybe ready to go on fighting at home by bombs.
So these terrorists make other countries say "No, we don't want to receive any refugees, we don't want to be like Sweden". Maybe they are really in fear, maybe only pretexts. But we feel in Sweden that the burden is too heavy on us. And every crime a refugee (or a child of refugees) commits, will be duly discussed in social media.
Should we (EU and US) not fight against IS? Should we let them spread their "caliphate"? Otoh, the Syrian régime is a repressing one, torturing the opponents. I can't see any easy solution.
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Post by tangent on Apr 12, 2016 16:01:34 GMT
I wonder if that information about the immigrants, about crime and sex, is really true. I've heard that sort of thing about Mexican immigrants in the US but crime statistics show that those immigrants actually commit less crime than US citizens. There are many people who willingly make up these stories just because they don't like them.
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Post by Mari on Apr 12, 2016 16:17:57 GMT
Space flower, I'm not really sure what your point is?
Regarding fighting is: keep in mind it's not a country. It's a lot of religious nuts with guns who hold large pieces of land and its people hostage. By bombing those cities, who are you going to kill? And then us westerners are surprised when the locals aren't too happy to be "saved " by us. And if that isn't enough we also decide afterward that their country should be turned into a democracy because that is obviously the best way of governing. Yeah, way to go us.
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Post by spaceflower on Apr 12, 2016 23:29:16 GMT
IS are holding areas in Syria and Irak and we want them out of there. The bombings are aimed at the IS soldiers. Just like in war, civilians are killed too. Of course, I blame the American invasion of Irak for this mess. But it is not USA who suffers the conequences but Europe, both refugees and terrorist attacks. One solution is that Syria and Irak are devided between Kurds, Sunni Muslims and Shia Muslims. But there is no possible compromise with IS. They don't want to compromise, they want to have it all or die.
The problem is that we cannot bomb the terrorists who attack European cities. They attack all over the world but Europe is nearst so I worry most about what happens here. So even if IS loses land, they can still attack us.
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Post by tangent on Apr 13, 2016 6:29:05 GMT
Then we must stop bombing their countries and trying to convert them to our ideology.
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Post by Mari on Apr 13, 2016 16:58:47 GMT
By the way: the bombings in non-european countries are much more frequent with many more victims. Europe is not necessarily a target at the moment.
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Yuki
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Post by Yuki on Apr 13, 2016 19:02:21 GMT
Then we must stop bombing their countries and trying to convert them to our ideology. I fail to see when the West tried to convert the Middle East to its "ideology". If you're talking about the attempt to "bring democracy" into some of these countries, well, apart from it being just a pretext to exploit resources, the only thing wrong about it was the method, not the idea. Actually, since I'm familiar with both sides in this "conflict", I think that Muslims are often more eager to convert other people to their ideology than the other way around. Secular societies tend to be much more open, tolerant and inclusive than religious societies, which tend to exclude anyone who does not follow its narrow and strict norms and values.
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Post by spaceflower on Apr 13, 2016 22:24:42 GMT
Seriously? This is one man! How many has Sweden taken in over the years? And not to be mean, but I've seen the circumstances of those refugees in a documentary on TV. They really aren't much better than in Parisian suburbs, or indeed some Dutch ones. They are discriminated against and the jobs the state helps provide are generally those no one else wants to take. No offence, but as long as we keep treating these people as second class, some of them will consider it a reason to join a radical group or join a gang or whatever, like you see in the USA. Immigrants, especially refugees, usually have to take jobs below their qualifications and "jobs no one else want to take". It has always been so. The immigrants from Sweden and Finland in USA had to take such jobs also. Hard and dangerous jobs, in mines for instance. They did not turn criminals and terrorists. I think Japanese immigrants in USA were treated very badly during WWII, sent to sort of concentrations camps, losing their jobs and homes. They did not turn terrorists or even demand compensation. The reason these immigrants turn terrorists may be that their is a religion (or interpretation of relgion) which intice them, often via internet. And often they quote the Quran. They are a minority but it takes just a few to kill many. So people get wary of muslims in general.
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Post by Moose on Apr 13, 2016 22:29:53 GMT
Mari and Steve - I do agree with you in many respects but I have been wondering recently if I am simply being naive. And no, it's not just the DM website that I am reading things on . The fact seems to be that there are a minority of immigrants who are not genuine refugees but who are wanting to cause trouble. I do not know numbers and I hope that it is a very small minority. But it still happens. And there are going to be more and more and more attacks along the lines of Brussels and Paris. I wonder if I've simply been turning a blind eye and saying 'it's just a few people' when in reality, it takes a large number of people to orchestrate a thing like this. Be absolutely honest .. if a hostel were to open opposite to your house holding young, male refugees, would you feel safe walking alone? Steve, would you feel safe about your daughters walking alone? Perhaps we are simply ignoring the fact that some of these people are attacking women and causing trouble.
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Post by spaceflower on Apr 13, 2016 22:40:11 GMT
I wonder if that information about the immigrants, about crime and sex, is really true. I've heard that sort of thing about Mexican immigrants in the US but crime statistics show that those immigrants actually commit less crime than US citizens. There are many people who willingly make up these stories just because they don't like them. Immigrants are overrepresented in violent crimes in Sweden. I've seen the statstics. But there is no new statstics. "B/c the governement don't dare to publish it, it would show what we already know, immigrants and especially muslims, commit more crimes than domestic Swedes", the xenophobic people on the internet say. Also, as soon as crimes like assualt, rape or murder are reported, the assumption is "immigrant/s did it". And often the suspects are Arabs, Somali, Kurds, Afghani. Sometimes gangsters from Eastern Europe. The crimes committed by domestic Swedes seem to drown in the sea of immigrant related crimes. Only this day I heard a woman talk about two 12-year girls surrounded and harrassed by a group of teenage boys in the mall. "And they were immigrant boys?" I asked. She confirmed that was the case.
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Post by Moose on Apr 13, 2016 22:58:29 GMT
I think that a lot of the problem is that Sweden is taking a huge amount more migrants, proportionally, than many (most) other EU countries are .. or indeed countries in the rest of the world. I don't see why things can't be changed so that every free country in the world takes some and takes the burden off tiny countries who are no finding themselves swamped.
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Post by spaceflower on Jun 9, 2016 23:18:28 GMT
I do hope there will not be terrorist attacks at UEFA Euro 2016. Those interested in socker look forward to UEFA Euro with joy, I just look forward with misgivings. One unexpected drawback from receiving Muslim refugees is the rise of anti-semitism in Sweden. This is not the old anti-semitism (Christian or Nazi) but the new Muslim. Rooted in the Palestine problem. But the Muslims don't distinguish between Israeli and Jews, both are called Yehudin and are hated. www.cbc.ca/news/world/anti-semitism-in-malm%C3%B6-reveals-flaws-in-swedish-immigration-system-1.3080484As the saying goes, no good deed goes unpunished.
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Post by kingedmund on Jun 13, 2016 23:35:52 GMT
Just completely not good no matter how it is handled.
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Post by spaceflower on Jul 23, 2016 2:18:55 GMT
84 dead in Nice. And now terrorist attack in München. When will it ever stop? Never, I fear.
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Post by tangent on Jul 23, 2016 7:28:52 GMT
When will it ever stop? It's not going to stop anytime soon. The roots of this go back nearly a hundred years to the time when the West started spreading its ideology of corruption and greed throughout the Middle East in the name of freedom and progress. It will only stop when the West stops trying to convert the Middle East to its own ideology. If you ever get the chance, have a look at the film Bitter Lake, imdb.com/rg/an_share/title/title/tt4393514/, currently available on iPlayer.
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