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Post by Moose on Apr 8, 2018 20:59:09 GMT
The closer it comes to the UK actually leaving - and the bigger the balls up we are increasingly realising that it's going to be - the more I am getting very irritated with people who voted Leave. I was trying to be, you know, fair, after the vote, and I tried to graciously accept that the side that I voted for lost. But .. this is not just about losing, it's about the majority of the electorate actually having voted for something that is gonna fuck us all up for generations. I am not being gracious anymore. I am just being angry.
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Post by JoeP on Apr 8, 2018 21:44:29 GMT
Quite right too.
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Post by Alvamiga on Apr 8, 2018 22:23:24 GMT
I am mostly annoyed with David Cameron for creating the whole fiasco! He used the promise of a referendum to garner votes in the previous election, but he did absolutely no preparation for the possible outcome, as he should have done, promised he would guide the country through, no matter which way it went, then instantly left when it didn't go his way. Typical rich politician who will never feel the effects his actions have on most everyone else!
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Post by Kye on Apr 8, 2018 22:47:06 GMT
So, for the sake of this humble and ignorant North American, can you tell me what kind of balls up you're looking at?
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Post by tangent on Apr 8, 2018 23:55:43 GMT
So, for the sake of this humble and ignorant North American, can you tell me what kind of balls up you're looking at? Where do we start? - Alienation from European nations
- Loss of trade and costly terms
- Reduction of earning power
- Potential surrender of human rights to a self-centered government
- Weakening of London as a financial centre
- Loss of scientific collaboration
- Dependence on America for trade and manufacturing standards
- Great loss of European staff in the NHS and other selected areas
- Hard Northern Ireland borders
- Discontent in Scotland, possibly leading to a breakaway
- Discontent in Northern Ireland possibly leading to civil war
- Possible union action on lowering living standards
Gloomy outlook for Brexit coming true, says IMF leader (20 Dec 2017) Why the economic forecasts for Britain are so apocalyptic - and how much Brexit is to blame (17 Nov 2017) Immediately after the result of the referendum, the rest of the world was calling it economic suicide and sadly they were right. But it's not just a gloomy economic forecast and the possibility of unrest, we lose so much more. The day after the referendum result was announced I bought the Times newspaper - I kept a copy for prosperity - and read the reaction from Europe. It was dire reading, much worse than I had thought, and I realized then how problematical the future was going to be. I suspect the Times journalists had prepared those reactions in advance and knew what was in store if we voted to leave.
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Post by Kye on Apr 9, 2018 1:43:35 GMT
Sounds horrible.
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Post by Moose on Apr 9, 2018 19:06:09 GMT
I've been talking to a lot of Europeans recently. Basically we're the laughing stock of Europe.
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Post by tangent on Apr 9, 2018 19:20:58 GMT
I'd swap Brexit for Donald Trump any day even though he makes me cringe.
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Post by Alvamiga on Apr 9, 2018 20:39:11 GMT
I'd swap Brexit for Donald Trump any day even though he makes me cringe. If Donald Trump was prime minister, I think we could get rid of him more easily than the Americans as their system seems geared to protecting him against behaving properly!
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Post by Moose on Apr 9, 2018 20:41:43 GMT
Well that's the thing .. Trump is finite. Brexit is not .
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Post by tangent on Apr 9, 2018 23:35:32 GMT
Exactly, Trump can be undone, Brexit cannot.
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Post by Alvamiga on Apr 10, 2018 9:12:51 GMT
Ultimately, it's the fault of the voters... without them, neither Trump nor Brexit would have got voted in.
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Post by tangent on Apr 10, 2018 10:46:17 GMT
I don't agree, voters were brainwashed by the tabloids into hating foreigners and were given misleading or false information by the government and by the Leave campaign teams. On that basis it is the fault of Paul Dacre, Editor of the Daily Mail, the Conservative Party and various unethical and illegal Leave campaigners.
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Post by Alvamiga on Apr 10, 2018 10:52:19 GMT
Quite! A lot of voters are too easily swayed and too lazy to think about what they are actually voting for. Stupid prejudices are easily triggered and people are more inclined to vote against a perceived threat than in favour of something they've stopped to consider.
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Post by Mari on Apr 10, 2018 17:47:39 GMT
That's the thing about referendums though. It always amazes me how people who know absolutely nothing don't bother to educate themselves on the subject and just vote whatever their neighbour is voting. Let's be real for a moment though: I think we (as in the people here on this forum) are in the top 10%: we care about the state of the world and we have enough time, interest and education to read up on issues. As long as "the intellectuals" (hate that term, but is appropriate here) don't realise that most people are not, they will not campaign effectively and things like Brexit will keep happening. (And as long as intellectual opportunists such as Cameron, the media top brass, etc. do realise this and abuse it to earn more money of course)
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Post by Alvamiga on Apr 11, 2018 9:08:43 GMT
In the UK referendum, it was more than a straight yes/no choice, even though that is what we were given. Even if leaving had been the right thing to do, I'd not have trusted the government we have to do it. As it turned out, we voted leave and seem to have an even worse set of people dealing with it. We should have had a "leave if a decent deal can be struck" option, but politicians are too black and white about decision making, leading to constant bad decisions with no exit strategy.
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Post by JoeP on Apr 11, 2018 10:38:39 GMT
Politicians are anything but black and white about decision making. They will never make any decision at all if there's a danger of it losing some votes.
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Post by Mari on Apr 11, 2018 16:42:45 GMT
We should have had a "leave if a decent deal can be struck" option, Do you really think we (as in the rest of Europe) would have let you get away with that? As a Dutch person I hope the EU stick to their guns and make it as expensive as they can for the UK. Just because they always managed to get the better end of the stick and never really did the "in it together"-thing but went along with the benificial parts and whined or even refused about the less good for them things, they thought they could leave easily. Sorry, but there's a lot of negative feelings towards the UK in this regard.
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Post by tangent on Apr 11, 2018 19:21:55 GMT
Just because they always managed to get the better end of the stick and never really did the "in it together"-thing but went along with the benificial parts and whined or even refused about the less good for them things, they thought they could leave easily. Sorry, but there's a lot of negative feelings towards the UK in this regard. I'm not surprised. The Times articles I referred to earlier gave me a fairly clear picture of the mood of the rest of Europe.
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Post by spaceflower on Apr 16, 2018 16:42:13 GMT
I read an article from author and professor Merete Mazzarella (born in Finland, Danish first name, Italian surname, Swedish-speaking). She and her husband was on a cruise. They sat at the same table as three British couples and they only talked about the food. But one day she asked "What do you think of Brexit?" The British all favoured Brexit, the sooner the better.
Merete and her husband were astonished. (Such seeemingly nice people!)
Why?
"We conquered Germany in the war, we thought we had conquered them once and for all, we really don't want any Fuhrer Merkel. We don't want their Monopoly money either (the euro that is)."
After that they changed the subject. Politics is not to be discussed.
They might be nice but I consider them full of prejudices and self content. We don't need EU, EU needs us.
So one reason for voting against EU is xenophobia (or should I write germanophobia?)
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Post by juju on Apr 17, 2018 10:54:04 GMT
Unfortunately xenophobia seems to be on the rise all over the world.
But as you must know Spaceflower, not all Brits are like that. No one on here, none of my friends or colleagues, in fact no one I know. Only 37% of the population voted to leave, and even of those not all of them voted for xenophobic reasons. In fact some voted to leave because they see the EU as a capitalistic bureaucracy (the left-wing leave campaign, or 'Lexit').
Personally I'm heartbroken that we're leaving. And I'm British.
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Post by tangent on Apr 17, 2018 12:00:54 GMT
But as you must know Spaceflower, not all Brits are like that. No one on here, none of my friends or colleagues, in fact no one I know. Only 37% of the population voted to leave, and even of those not all of them voted for xenophobic reasons. In fact some voted to leave because they see the EU as a capitalistic bureaucracy (the left-wing leave campaign, or 'Lexit'). Personally I'm heartbroken that we're leaving. And I'm British. I feel exactly the same way, juju. I do have a Facebook friend* who is a diehard Leaver but he is the only one. I had many acquaintances at my old gym who were businessmen (some very senior) and almost to a T voted to leave for business reasons. * and one-time contributing member of EF. † The phrase 'to a T' was first cited in 1693 and is thought to have been derived from tittle or jot.
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Post by spaceflower on Apr 17, 2018 12:10:58 GMT
No, the referendum was rather even. The problem is that people vote "with their hearts". I wish they would vote with their brains instead, i.e. found out the facts and use reason and logic.
There are people in Sweden who think we should follow the British example. There is a lot of wastefulness and corruption in EU. But Sweden is a small country. What might work for UK will not work for us.
And I've never heard anyone call Angela Merkel a "Fuehrer" here, must be a British thing.
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Post by tangent on Apr 17, 2018 12:24:44 GMT
No, the referendum was rather even. The referendum was rather even but when asked why they voted, 70% said it was mainly to control immigration. 70% of 52% is 36%. And juju is right in saying only 37% of the population voted to leave because not everyone voted.
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Post by Alvamiga on Apr 17, 2018 14:08:39 GMT
Too many cast their vote based on lies and misinformation such as the blue passport nonsense.
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Post by juju on Apr 17, 2018 19:07:30 GMT
No, the referendum was rather even. The referendum was rather even but when asked why they voted, 70% said it was mainly to control immigration. 70% of 52% is 36%. And juju is right in saying only 37% of the population voted to leave because not everyone voted. Exactly. Not everyone voted, and lots of people were not eligible to vote, including 16-17 year old and Britons living abroad. If they had been able to vote the outcome would have been different.
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Post by Moose on Apr 18, 2018 19:53:57 GMT
Who is the one time contributing member of EF who is a Leaver, Steve?
The tabloids may have influenced people but it's depressing that so many people are so unable to think for themselves that they CAN be influenced in that way. Finding accurate facts and figures is not that difficult.
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Post by tangent on Apr 18, 2018 20:43:34 GMT
Who is the one time contributing member of EF who is a Leaver, Steve? Why, erekose of course. I'm sure he won't mind me saying.
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Post by Moose on Apr 19, 2018 18:00:08 GMT
Oh right. Yeah, he's gone barmy (with respect)
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Post by tangent on Apr 19, 2018 18:11:27 GMT
His views are probably moulded by contact with his union friends and that in itself is valuable because the rest of us do not have his union experiences (that I know of).
Nor his experiences with flat earthers, chemtrails, vaccination hoaxes and conspiracy theories.
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