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Post by tangent on Nov 1, 2020 7:49:10 GMT
With news that England is going to go into lockdown on Thursday, I was startled to read about Sir Iain Duncan Smith's reaction. In the Sunday Telegraph, the former Conservative leader accused the prime minister of "giving in to the scientific advisers". He says "the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (Sage) had pressurised the government into taking this decision, with its members publicly lecturing the government." I thought this was a one off but apparently, quite a few backbenchers appear to be taking the same viewpoint. So, I Googled "tory mps reject science" and was disturbed to find it is a surprisingly common theme amongst conservative members: Most Tory members don’t believe established climate change science, survey finds (the Independent, March 2020) MPs who reject science are undermining the public interest ( New Statesman, July 2014) It's a running joke that Republicans in America are scientifically illiterate, especially when it comes to Betsy DeVos the Education Secretary but I wonder if it is intrinsic to the conservative mind that they tend to reject any scientific evidence that they don't like.
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Post by JoeP on Nov 1, 2020 13:15:10 GMT
IDS seems to be very much an "us vs them" Tory.
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Post by whollygoats on Nov 1, 2020 15:12:57 GMT
US Republicans and UK Tories are birds of a feather.
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Post by Moose on Nov 5, 2020 20:41:43 GMT
It is strange to me how the right wing is associated with scientific ignorance and the left with scientific know how. Why is this? Oh, I do not doubt that it is true - you'd be hard pressed to find a left wing Creationist - but I do not know when science and politics became so entwined .. or estranged.
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Post by Kye on Nov 5, 2020 22:00:08 GMT
I think there is a large group of humans that just love things that are simple and easy to digest, whether it be politics, religion or science. They tend to gravitate to people and institutions that give them the comfort of simplicity and the illusion of control. Anything ambiguous makes them uneasy, and unfortunately a lot of the world is ambiguous.
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Post by slokenin on Dec 6, 2020 19:39:54 GMT
There is way too much religion in UK right wing politics, who needs science when you've got god? I think a lot of the blame can be attributed to public schools.
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Post by whollygoats on Dec 6, 2020 22:26:08 GMT
Public schools in the UK have been imbuing their graduates with the superiority of their god?
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Post by tangent on Dec 6, 2020 23:14:40 GMT
I think there is a large group of humans that just love things that are simple and easy to digest, whether it be politics, religion or science. They tend to gravitate to people and institutions that give them the comfort of simplicity and the illusion of control. Anything ambiguous makes them uneasy, and unfortunately a lot of the world is ambiguous. I don't think Conservative MPs are simple-minded - some may be but not in general - I think it goes with the conservative mindset, favouring structure and order over fairness and justice. Science is a great leveller, it shines a light on uncomfortable truths. Many Conservative MPs, I find, don't like evidence that conflicts with their goals and so they tell themselves the evidence is exaggerated or irrelevant. Public schools play a part in this, not by pushing religion as such but by presenting the opportunity for structure and order. And what better examples of structure and order than the Anglican and Roman Catholic Churches? Not for them the wild non-conformists.
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Post by whollygoats on Dec 6, 2020 23:58:47 GMT
I think there is a large group of humans that just love things that are simple and easy to digest, whether it be politics, religion or science. They tend to gravitate to people and institutions that give them the comfort of simplicity and the illusion of control. Anything ambiguous makes them uneasy, and unfortunately a lot of the world is ambiguous. I don't think Conservative MPs are simple-minded - some may be but not in general - I think it goes with the conservative mindset, favouring structure and order over fairness and justice. Science is a great leveller, it shines a light on uncomfortable truths. Many Conservative MPs, I find, don't like evidence that conflicts with their goals and so they tell themselves the evidence is exaggerated or irrelevant. Public schools play a part in this, not by pushing religion as such but by presenting the opportunity for structure and order. And what better examples of structure and order than the Anglican and Roman Catholic Churches? Not for them the wild non-conformists. Which is quite an accomplishment, considering the characters which animate their theology were wild non-conformists of most striking type.
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Post by Kye on Dec 7, 2020 0:39:58 GMT
I was just going to say...!
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Post by tangent on Dec 7, 2020 1:08:29 GMT
Which is quite an accomplishment, considering the characters which animate their theology were wild non-conformists of most striking type. I don't understand what you mean by this, sorry. I went to a state school run by a headmaster who pretended it was a public school and he was only interested in structure and order so he would have forbidden any deviation from the norm.
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Post by Kye on Dec 7, 2020 1:10:09 GMT
Certainly Jesus was completely outside the box for one. He was always pissing off the establishment.
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Post by whollygoats on Dec 7, 2020 2:14:34 GMT
And Paul was the original heretic.
And there you have it.
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Post by Kye on Dec 7, 2020 2:17:59 GMT
Well, eventually.
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Post by whollygoats on Dec 7, 2020 2:21:08 GMT
One of the beauties of the scene. The original heretic predates orthodoxy entirely.
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Post by Moose on Dec 7, 2020 6:25:35 GMT
I wish I really believed that these people were real.
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Post by Kye on Dec 7, 2020 11:39:05 GMT
I'd have a hard time believing that Paul was not real. He was such an annoying and hardnosed yet loving man.
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Post by tangent on Dec 7, 2020 16:22:29 GMT
And Paul was the original heretic. And there you have it. Oh, I see. I love heretics - the ones that kick against the establishment and demolish their airs and graces.
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Post by JoeP on Dec 7, 2020 18:39:58 GMT
And Paul was the original heretic. And there you have it. Oh, I see. I love heretics - the ones that kick against the establishment and demolish their airs and graces. Sounds like a description of whollygoats!
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Post by whollygoats on Dec 7, 2020 23:16:31 GMT
Now, see there. I think that Marcion was inspired. He was a fanboy of Paul, too.
Remember, Paul warned about all those 'Judaizers' who were flogging their own perverse Jesus (2Corinth 11:4). Marcion liked the Jesus story so much, particularly Paul's Jesus, he could not believe that such a savior would have been sent by the twisted, vengeful, and vituperative god of the Israelites. Jesus had to be the emissary of a 'greater god', a god of love and peace. Yahweh had to be denied and cast down as the source of evil. Something of a dualistic take on things. Of course, Marcion was the first christian to attempt to systematize the scriptures and get the tale in print. It was because of his efforts that the New Testament eventually came in to being. As a reaction.
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Post by whollygoats on Dec 7, 2020 23:19:26 GMT
I'd have a hard time believing that Paul was not real. He was such an annoying and hardnosed yet loving man. Which Paul? The Paul of Acts, or the Paul of the epistles? And, which epistles? I understand several New Testament items with Paul's name attached are authorially dubious. Much of the scholarship I've read seems to think that amongst the Pauline materials, there are several epistles which show the characteristics of a singular personality. I'm not sure which they all are, or are not, but I'm sure that the two Corinthian epistles are considered 'original' to that author. Or, authors. It may well have been a 'school' of scribes, as per Father Thomas Brodie. I'm in the midst of Father Thomas' tome on the interscriptural influences in the gospels, with much of the New Testament gospel scriptures being based upon midrash of Septuagint scritpures. Rewrites of favorite portions of the Hebrew Bible to use as new tools of evangelism. The Jesus tale was like a huge fan fave for the several 'schools' of literate scribal communities to adapt, rewrite, recast, and resurrect as new teachings. The New Testament is the fanfic result after hundreds of years.
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Post by whollygoats on Dec 7, 2020 23:40:07 GMT
I wish I really believed that these people were real. Why? Would it mean anything different if they actually had been 'real' historical personages? Does transforming them in to mythic entities, cultural constructs, make the lessons associated with them any less valuable?
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Post by tangent on Dec 8, 2020 0:00:46 GMT
Sounds like a description of whollygoats! I don't see that exactly. I've always been a rebel against pretentious people myself.
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Post by whollygoats on Dec 8, 2020 0:06:03 GMT
Unfortunately, the Tories ARE real.
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Post by slokenin on Dec 11, 2020 21:57:51 GMT
Public schools in the UK have been imbuing their graduates with the superiority of their god? Yes, they're still in the 19th century with their assumed entitelment and such, see Jacob Rees Mogg as a prime example, or our 'god' appointed queen.
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Post by Moose on Dec 11, 2020 23:15:40 GMT
God I really hate Rees Mogg.
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Post by tangent on Dec 11, 2020 23:31:33 GMT
Yes, I do [hate Rees Mogg] but I'm not convinced their 'god' has anything to do with their superiority. I don't believe it has anything to do with their superiority, which comes from their status.
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