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Post by whollygoats on Apr 21, 2021 22:51:54 GMT
Okay...Over on that other platform, somebody posted up some literary list evidently pushed by BBC, which stated that they thought their average viewer would have read six of the hundred. Their list is as thus:
1 Pride and Prejudice- Jane Austen 2 The Lord of the Rings - JRR Tolkien 3 Jane Eyre - Charlotte Bronte 4 Harry Potter series - JK Rowling 5 To Kill a Mockingbird - Harper Lee 6 The Bible - 7 Wuthering Heights - Emily Bronte 8 Nineteen Eighty Four - George Orwell 9 His Dark Materials - Philip Pullman 10 Great Expectations - Charles Dickens 11 Little Women - Louisa May Alcott 12 Tess of the D'Urbervilles - Thomas Hardy 13 Catch 22 - Joseph Heller 14 Complete Works of Shakespeare 15 Rebecca - Daphne Du Maurier 16 The Hobbit - JRR Tolkien 17 Birdsong - Sebastian Faulkes 18 Catcher in the Rye - JD Salinger 19 The Time Traveler's Wife-Audrey Niffenegger 20 Middlemarch - George Eliot 21 Gone With The Wind - Margaret Mitchell 22 The Great Gatsby - F Scott Fitzgerald 23 Bleak House - Charles Dickens 24 War and Peace - Leo Tolstoy 25 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy - Douglas Adams 27 Crime and Punishment - Fyodor Dostoyevsky 28 Grapes of Wrath - John Steinbeck 29 Alice in Wonderland - Lewis Carroll 30 The Wind in the Willows - Kenneth Grahame 31 Anna Karenina - Leo Tolstoy 32 David Copperfield - Charles Dickens 33 Chronicles of Narnia - CS Lewis 34 Emma - Jane Austen 35 Persuasion - Jane Austen 36 The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe - CS Lewis 37 The Kite Runner - Khaled Hosseini 38 Captain Corelli's Mandolin - Louis De Bernieres 39 Memoirs of a Geisha - Arthur Golden 40 Winnie the Pooh - AA Milne 41 Animal Farm - George Orwell 42 The Da Vinci Code - Dan Brown 43 One Hundred Years of Solitude - Gabriel Garcia Marquez 44 A Prayer for Owen Meany - John Irving 45 The Woman in White - Wilkie Collins 46 Anne of Green Gables - LM Montgomery 47 Far From The Madding Crowd - Thomas Hardy 48 The Handmaid's Tale - Margaret Atwood 49 Lord of the Flies - William Golding 50 Atonement - Ian McEwan 51 Life of Pi - Yann Martel 52 Dune - Frank Herbert 53 Cold Comfort Farm - Stella Gibbons 54 Sense and Sensibility - Jane Austen 55 A Suitable Boy - Vikram Seth 56 The Shadow of the Wind - Carlos Ruiz Zafon 57 A Tale Of Two Cities - Charles Dickens 58 Brave New World - Aldous Huxley 59 The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Nighttime - Mark Haddon 60 Love In The Time Of Cholera - Gabriel Garcia Marquez 61 Of Mice and Men - John Steinbeck 62 Lolita - Vladimir Nabokov 63 The Secret History - Donna Tart 64 The Lovely Bones - Alice Sebold 65 Count of Monte Cristo - Alexandre Dumas 66 On The Road - Jack Kerouac 67 Jude the Obscure - Thomas Hardy 68 Bridget Jones's Diary - Helen Fielding 69 Midnight's Children - Salman Rushdie 70 Moby Dick - Herman Melville 71 Oliver Twist - Charles Dickens 72 Dracula - Bram Stoker 73 The Secret Garden - Frances Hodgson Burnett 74 Notes From A Small Island - Bill Bryson 75 Ulysses - James Joyce 76 The Inferno - Dante (Have it downloaded) 77 Swallows and Amazons - Arthur Ransome 78 Germinal - Emile Zola 79 Vanity Fair - William Makepeace Thackeray 80 Possession - AS Byatt 81 A Christmas Carol - Charles Dickens 82 Cloud Atlas - David Mitchell- 83 The Color Purple - Alice Walker 84 The Remains of the Day - Kazuo Ishiguro 85 Madame Bovary - Gustave Flaubert 86 A Fine Balance - Rohinton Mistry 87 Charlotte's Web - EB White 88 The Five People You Meet In Heaven - Mitch Albom 89 Adventures of Sherlock Holmes - Sir Arthur Conan Doyle 90 The Faraway Tree Collection - Enid Blyton 91 Heart of Darkness - Joseph Conrad 92 The Little Prince - Antoine De Saint-Eupery 93 The Wasp Factory - Iain Banks 94 Watership Down - Richard Adams 95 A Confederacy of Dunces - John Kennedy Toole 96 A Town Like Alice - Nevil Shute 97 The Three Musketeers - Alexandre Dumas 98 Hamlet - William Shakespeare 99 Charlie and the Chocolate Factory - Roald Dahl 100 Gaudy Night - Dorothy Sayers
The reader was then challenged with "How many have you read?"
My count was in the realm of 33, but I noticed some odd entries and trends.
My first notion was to wonder whether this was meant to cover 'classics' or 'popular reading'. There seemed to be a smattering of both and some titles which were unclear to me, either because I was unfamiliar with author or title or both, or because I was unclear as to whether it might actually pass as 'classic' in some quarters. Then, I noticed the 'duplications' of Shakespeare and Lewis, the number of both Austen and Dickens tomes, and the curious question of whether it is supposed to be 'fiction' and, if so, why is Bryson's work included?
Any way. I think we can construct a better list.
Anybody else want to work on this?
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Post by whollygoats on Apr 21, 2021 23:23:54 GMT
1 Pride and Prejudice - Jane Austen 2 The Lord of the Rings - JRR Tolkien 3 Jane Eyre - Charlotte Bronte 4 Harry Potter series - JK Rowling ::: Gulliver's Travels - Jonathan Swift 5 To Kill a Mockingbird - Harper Lee 6 The Bible ::: Don Quixote - Miguel de Cervantes 7 Wuthering Heights - Emily Bronte 8 Nineteen Eighty Four - George Orwell 9 His Dark Materials - Philip Pullman ::: Treasure Island - Robert Louis Stevenson 10 Great Expectations - Charles Dickens 11 Little Women - Louisa May Alcott 12 Tess of the D'Urbervilles - Thomas Hardy 13 Catch 22 - Joseph Heller 14 Complete Works of Shakespeare ::: A Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn 15 Rebecca - Daphne Du Maurier 16 The Hobbit - JRR Tolkien 17 Birdsong - Sebastian Faulkes 18 Catcher in the Rye - JD Salinger 19 The Time Traveler's Wife-Audrey Niffenegger 20 Middlemarch - George Eliot 21 Gone With The Wind - Margaret Mitchell ::: The Glass Bead Game - Hermann Hesse 22 The Great Gatsby - F Scott Fitzgerald 23 Bleak House - Charles Dickens 24 War and Peace - Leo Tolstoy 25 The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy - Douglas Adams ::: Slaughterhouse Five - Kurt Vonnegut 27 Crime and Punishment - Fyodor Dostoyevsky 28 Grapes of Wrath - John Steinbeck 29 Alice in Wonderland - Lewis Carroll 30 The Wind in the Willows - Kenneth Grahame 31 Anna Karenina - Leo Tolstoy 32 David Copperfield - Charles Dickens 33 Chronicles of Narnia - CS Lewis ::: For Whom the Bell Tolls - Ernest Hemingway 34 Emma - Jane Austen 35 Persuasion - Jane Austen 36 The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe - CS Lewis 37 The Kite Runner - Khaled Hosseini 38 Captain Corelli's Mandolin - Louis De Bernieres ::: Adventures of Tom Sawyer - Mark Twain 39 Memoirs of a Geisha - Arthur Golden 40 Winnie the Pooh - AA Milne 41 Animal Farm - George Orwell 42 The Da Vinci Code - Dan Brown ::: Foucault's Pendulum - Umberto Eco 43 One Hundred Years of Solitude - Gabriel Garcia Marquez 44 A Prayer for Owen Meany - John Irving 45 The Woman in White - Wilkie Collins 46 Anne of Green Gables - LM Montgomery 47 Far From The Madding Crowd - Thomas Hardy 48 The Handmaid's Tale - Margaret Atwood 49 Lord of the Flies - William Golding 50 Atonement - Ian McEwan 51 Life of Pi - Yann Martel 52 Dune - Frank Herbert ::: What's Bred in the Bone - Robertson Davies 53 Cold Comfort Farm - Stella Gibbons 54 Sense and Sensibility - Jane Austen 55 A Suitable Boy - Vikram Seth 56 The Shadow of the Wind - Carlos Ruiz Zafon 57 A Tale Of Two Cities - Charles Dickens 58 Brave New World - Aldous Huxley 59 The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Nighttime - Mark Haddon 60 Love In The Time Of Cholera - Gabriel Garcia Marquez 61 Of Mice and Men - John Steinbeck 62 Lolita - Vladimir Nabokov 63 The Secret History - Donna Tart 64 The Lovely Bones - Alice Sebold 65 Count of Monte Cristo - Alexandre Dumas 66 On The Road - Jack Kerouac 67 Jude the Obscure - Thomas Hardy 68 Bridget Jones's Diary - Helen Fielding ::: As You Like It - William Shakespeare 69 Midnight's Children - Salman Rushdie 70 Moby Dick - Herman Melville 71 Oliver Twist - Charles Dickens 72 Dracula - Bram Stoker 73 The Secret Garden - Frances Hodgson Burnett 74 Notes From A Small Island - Bill Bryson ::: Henry V - William Shakespeare 75 Ulysses - James Joyce 76 The Inferno - Dante 77 Swallows and Amazons - Arthur Ransome 78 Germinal - Emile Zola 79 Vanity Fair - William Makepeace Thackeray 80 Possession - AS Byatt 81 A Christmas Carol - Charles Dickens 82 Cloud Atlas - David Mitchell- 83 The Color Purple - Alice Walker 84 The Remains of the Day - Kazuo Ishiguro 85 Madame Bovary - Gustave Flaubert 86 A Fine Balance - Rohinton Mistry 87 Charlotte's Web - EB White 88 The Five People You Meet In Heaven - Mitch Albom 89 Adventures of Sherlock Holmes - Sir Arthur Conan Doyle 90 The Faraway Tree Collection - Enid Blyton 91 Heart of Darkness - Joseph Conrad 92 The Little Prince - Antoine De Saint-Eupery 93 The Wasp Factory - Iain Banks 94 Watership Down - Richard Adams 95 A Confederacy of Dunces - John Kennedy Toole 96 A Town Like Alice - Nevil Shute 97 The Three Musketeers - Alexandre Dumas 98 Hamlet - William Shakespeare 99 Charlie and the Chocolate Factory - Roald Dahl 100 Gaudy Night - Dorothy Sayers
This color means I think they qualify as 'literature' in my book If they are still in black text, then either I think of them as 'popular reading', or I'm unfamiliar with either author, title, or both. Or, if I'm familiar with one or more, I'm unsure as to their context.
This pass seemed to bring out the number of 'young adult' titles, or books written with the younger reader in mind.
And...Five Dickens titles and four Austen titles? That's way too many of both. Pick just one or two and we'll make room for the likes Hermann Hesse, Kurt Vonnegut, and others.
And...Daphne du Maurier and Dorothy Sayers, but no doyen of the mystery novels, Agatha Christie herself? I think those two should be excised and used to start a 100 list of best mystery novels. But, if you think they qualify, I have to push for the inclusion of at least one Agatha Christie title.
I do NOT think that the Da Vinci Code, nor Gone With the Wind, nor Bridget Jones' Diary, nor Notes from a Small Island should be included on this list. If you disagree, I'd like to hear your rationale. I'd even like to hear any disagreements on those I vetted as 'literature'. As for the remaining, I'm looking for explanations as to why they are here, whether they should be excised, and what they might be replaced with.
Let the dickering begin!
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Post by JoeP on Apr 22, 2021 8:36:19 GMT
I agree it's not balanced in terms of representing "literature". I can only assume the editors said better put some modern "bestsellers" in there to mix and up, and plenty of children's books.
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Post by Sarah W. on Apr 22, 2021 21:01:20 GMT
I'm sure we could have a whole thread just to define literature. The only strong opinion I have initially is that Gaudy Night is as much literature as most of the things on this list. It's more than just a whodunnit. Also, since I bothered to count them up, my count is 39.
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Post by whollygoats on Apr 22, 2021 22:18:15 GMT
I'm sure we could have a whole thread just to define literature. The only strong opinion I have initially is that Gaudy Night is as much literature as most of the things on this list. It's more than just a whodunnit. Also, since I bothered to count them up, my count is 39. Indeed....Defining literature seems to be what linguistic literary types do all the time. I imagine there are entire doctoral theses on the topic. I have not read 'Gaudy Night', but I appreciate Dorothy Sayers' writing and quite love her Lord Peter Whimsy character. I do know that Daphne du Maurier's 'Rebecca' goes beyond just being a whodunnit, as well. Thanks for your input.
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Post by tangent on Apr 22, 2021 22:53:46 GMT
Just eleven for me, which is more than I would have thought since my English teachers killed my interest in books when I was at secondary school.
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Post by whollygoats on Apr 22, 2021 23:04:06 GMT
Just eleven for me, which is more than I would have thought since my English teachers killed my interest in books when I was at secondary school. Yeah, the right teacher can do that. Did they kill your interest by demanding that you actually read the material and struggle to understand it?
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Post by Kye on Apr 23, 2021 0:05:42 GMT
I've read 50 that I'm sure of, and maybe a couple of others that I might have read when I was a lot younger.
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Post by whollygoats on Apr 23, 2021 0:43:54 GMT
So...I'm surprised that I have yet to be harassed about not automatically including the Lord of the Rings as a classic.
I did that because Lord of the Rings is a trilogy, not a single tome. Should we expect the reader to read the whole triology to qualify, or can we pick one that would be emblematic of the whole trilogy (if they read it, they'd be likely to read the whole trilogy)? It's not as bad as 'Harry Potter series' (what, 8 or 9 volumes?), but still...
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Post by whollygoats on Apr 23, 2021 0:57:59 GMT
I've read 50 that I'm sure of, and maybe a couple of others that I might have read when I was a lot younger. Have you read any of these? 17 Birdsong - Sebastian Faulkes 19 The Time Traveler's Wife-Audrey Niffenegger 38 Captain Corelli's Mandolin - Louis De Bernieres 39 Memoirs of a Geisha - Arthur Golden 45 The Woman in White - Wilkie Collins 50 Atonement - Ian McEwan 51 Life of Pi - Yann Martel 55 A Suitable Boy - Vikram Seth 56 The Shadow of the Wind - Carlos Ruiz Zafon 59 The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Nighttime - Mark Haddon 63 The Secret History - Donna Tart 64 The Lovely Bones - Alice Sebold 80 Possession - AS Byatt 82 Cloud Atlas - David Mitchell 86 A Fine Balance - Rohinton Mistry 88 The Five People You Meet In Heaven - Mitch Albom 90 The Faraway Tree Collection - Enid Blyton 93 The Wasp Factory - Iain Banks 95 A Confederacy of Dunces - John Kennedy Toole With the exception of 'Captain Corelli's Mandolin', I'm entirely in the dark on these titles. I saw 'Captain Corelli's Mandolin' as a film starring Nicolas Cage and Penelope Cruz. It was crap. Based on that, I would not place this title in the list....but I'm a Phil S. Dean. Can you enlighten on any of these? Do any rise to the quality of literature, or should any be excluded?
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Post by whollygoats on Apr 23, 2021 1:26:55 GMT
Okay...'Birdsong', by Sebastian Faulkes, or 'The English Patient', by Michael Ondaatje? Similar themes...why does one get included, and the other not?
And, 'The Time Traveler's Wife' by Audrey Niffenegger? Why not 'Time After Time' by Lisa Grunwald?
And, 'Memoirs of a Geisha'? By Arthur Golden? Arthur Golden? Why not 'The Pillow Book', by Sei Shonagon, the 'memoir' of a real geisha? I suppose that its style doesn't really lend itself to the novel format like Golden's work does.
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Post by Kye on Apr 23, 2021 1:58:55 GMT
I've read #51 #52 #64 #82 #86 and maybe #80.
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Post by whollygoats on Apr 23, 2021 2:03:53 GMT
Now that we have removed some items from the list, we have some spaces to add in others.
I will recommend the inclusion of:
'Magister Ludi: The Glass Bead Game' by Hermann Hesse. Hesse has an extensive list of titles, many which would easily qualify for the 'literature' label. I think 'The Glass Bead Game' to be his finest work and it is a winner of the Nobel Prize in Literature. It is a masterful piece of Bildungsroman fiction set in an indeterminate future.
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Post by whollygoats on Apr 23, 2021 2:05:45 GMT
I've read #51 #52 #64 #82 #86 and maybe #80. Would you assess them all, or any, to rise to the level of 'literature'? Or, were they excellent popular fiction that was a great read...mind candy? I'm assuming that you mean #55, instead of #52? ' A Suitable Boy', rather than 'Dune'?
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Post by Kye on Apr 23, 2021 3:01:17 GMT
Yes, A Suitable Boy (but I have also read Dune)
I don't really analyse what I read into "literature" and "fiction". I read it if I like it and don't delve further into the experience. I used to HATE English Lit courses when I was in school, although I like to read.
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Post by whollygoats on Apr 23, 2021 4:03:06 GMT
#52 causes me some consternation.
It is a piece of popular fiction. It is not literature, except under very liberal boundaries, where science fiction is more openly recognized. It is a masterful piece of science fiction, but there are other writers in the genre who also deserve recognition if Dune is included. I would think that Isaac Asimov's I, Robot derves a place of honor and I would push for the inclusion of Ursula LeGuin's Left Hand of Darkness. It might be best that a supplementary list of premiere science fiction novels are listed, rather than judiciously limit their presence in this list?
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Post by whollygoats on Apr 23, 2021 4:14:25 GMT
Oh, I like to read, too. But, I don't put Terry Pratchett and Robertson Davies in the same literary categories. I love both of their works and they are both fiction writers, but they are very different. I consider Pratchett to be 'brain candy' and Davies to be 'literature'. Umberto Eco is a literary challenge that is lasting; Bill Bryson is a wondrous romp through some countryside with a good friend, gone like the taste of yesterday's clotted cream and berries.
Here...Here's a test. Have you recommended a title, or loaned your copy, to anybody because you enjoyed it and thought they would, as well? Of any of those short-listed titles.
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Post by whollygoats on Apr 23, 2021 4:17:46 GMT
Also....Did I notice that Jonathan Swift's Gulliver's Travels is missing from the original list? If so, that needs to be rectified.
The same seems to be the case for Don Quixote, by Miguel de Cervantes.
If Treasure Island by Robert Louis Stevenson is not there, it prolly should be.
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Post by whollygoats on Apr 23, 2021 5:27:03 GMT
Another recommendation for inclusion would be Alexander Solzhenitsyn's A Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich.
And, Robertson Davies' Fifth Business, although Leaven of Malice or What's Bred in the Bone would do as well.
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Post by whollygoats on Apr 23, 2021 5:35:02 GMT
Agatha Christie readers? Is there a better example than Murder on the Orient Express?
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Post by whollygoats on Apr 23, 2021 6:19:29 GMT
Herman Wouk's Caine Mutiny? I actually had this as an assigned English class reading. But then, we did On the Beach, too.
All Quiet on the Western Front by Erich Maria Remarque. How many of us had to read that?
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Post by whollygoats on Apr 23, 2021 6:27:55 GMT
There ought to be at least one Ayn Rand on that list....but, which one? I'd guess The Fountainhead would be most emblematic of the toxins she released into the world.
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Post by tangent on Apr 23, 2021 9:22:20 GMT
Just eleven for me, which is more than I would have thought since my English teachers killed my interest in books when I was at secondary school. Yeah, the right teacher can do that. Did they kill your interest by demanding that you actually read the material and struggle to understand it? I was starved of interesting books in years 5 and 6, which dulled my comprehensive ability, and then force-fed classics in years 7 and 8. I left school never wanting to read another book in my life. Did I struggle to understand the material? I struggled to make sense of each individual sentence. I did not finish any of the books I was given to read until I read Animal Farm in year 11. That was the first classical book I understood.
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Post by whollygoats on Apr 23, 2021 15:16:47 GMT
Yeah, the right teacher can do that. Did they kill your interest by demanding that you actually read the material and struggle to understand it? I was starved of interesting books in years 5 and 6, which dulled my comprehensive ability, and then force-fed classics in years 7 and 8. I left school never wanting to read another book in my life. Did I struggle to understand the material? I struggled to make sense of each individual sentence. I did not finish any of the books I was given to read until I read Animal Farm in year 11. That was the first classical book I understood. Ouch. I remember resenting having to plough through Henry Fielding's History of Tom Jones in year 10. That nearly did in my interest in 'literature'. But, the English teachers had cottoned to the overkill aspect and changed up with the likes of Herman Wouk's Caine Mutiny and William Golding's Lord of the Flies, which better captured the interest of classrooms filled with adolescent males. My three years at my first secondary school also introduced me to the dystopian novels, Brave New World, 1984, and Fahrenheit 451. Those all piqued my interest and kept me reading.
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Post by Mari on Apr 23, 2021 16:16:54 GMT
I've read 50 that I'm sure of, and maybe a couple of others that I might have read when I was a lot younger. Have you read any of these? 19 The Time Traveler's Wife-Audrey Niffenegger Is also a film or series on Netflix 50 Atonement - Ian McEwan Not my thing 51 Life of Pi - Yann Martel Interesting, youth lit 59 The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Nighttime - Mark Haddon Very interesting main character with autism going on a trip of self discovery in a believable way. Youth lit 64 The Lovely Bones - Alice Sebold Absolute tear jerker 90 The Faraway Tree Collection - Enid Blyton Very old fashioned, preferred her other series, some of which I read extensively. 93 The Wasp Factory - Iain Banks Dunno the books, but like the author
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Post by Mari on Apr 23, 2021 16:24:38 GMT
Okay, I just counted. I've read and finished 20 books, I've read/watched/heard enough to confidently say I know the story of 49 books.
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Post by Mari on Apr 23, 2021 16:53:27 GMT
I'm not going to join the literature or not discussion because I only care about whether I like the book and would recommend it or not. I hate having to think about deeper meanings etc. Either I read the book and pick up on one or I don't. School kinda ruined that for me, even though I'm an avid reader. Dutch literature is awful by the way. One of the requirements for Dutch literature is that there is a philosophical discourse even if the story doesn't lend itself for it and very difficult words are used at any conceivable place and some inconceivable ones. That makes all books complicated and convoluted and very annoying to read.
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Post by Kye on Apr 23, 2021 17:49:53 GMT
Mari, I've read the Life of Pi and The Lovely Bones of the ones you listed. I liked them both.
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Post by whollygoats on Apr 23, 2021 18:17:55 GMT
Thanks, Mari.
It sounds to me like The Lovely Bones and Life of Pi stay in.
I'm still leaning against The Time Traveler's Wife. Television serialization doesn't lend itself to 'rise to literature' standards.
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Post by tangent on Apr 23, 2021 18:56:25 GMT
I started reading the Life of Pi and then watched the film and felt I didn't need to finish the book
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