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Post by whollygoats on Jun 24, 2013 19:44:49 GMT
So there you are, ladies, you should be making yourselves look ugly. So...You live in a world of stark contrasts only, eh? For me, there is a helluva lot of room between 'most beautiful' and 'ugly'. Like, most of the people in the world.
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Post by Alvamiga on Jun 24, 2013 19:45:03 GMT
There is definitely a contingent of men who hold up these attitudes towards women, but in the main, I agree with the goat about how personality and vanity are often geared against each other. I also wonder about how often women change their look to "get a man" and then end up with some vacuous moron who only appreciates her for her looks. All this stuff is certainly not helped by the advertising industry who spend colossal amounts of money trying to make women feel insecure about their looks and make up new "problems" which their new product will fix. ...and as for the magazines with their computer-enhanced images and written abuse of anyone daring not to conform..!
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Post by Mari on Jun 24, 2013 20:45:58 GMT
I'm not going to disagree with you Mari, I'm just coming at this from a different angle. When I worked for an airline there was no denying that if you wanted to be cabin crew you had to be either female and pretty or gay and good looking ( in 18 years I only knew one straight man who was cabin crew ). Cabin crew was a "glamour" job and as such that was the way it was and, I suspect, ever will be, but throughout my working life my bosses have been pretty much split 50/50 between male and female. Good looks don't necessarily get you to the top in either education, academia or medicine. Sure I've known women get appointments because they are good looking, no denying that, but only the clever ones held those positions for any length of time. P.S. I'm not saying anything new here, my original comment is a straight plagiarism from " The female eunuch" Oh, I do agree they need more than good looks alone, but it's a good way to start. From there on, you have to do it yourself, but some people don't even get that first chance just because of how they look.
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Post by raspberrybullets on Jun 24, 2013 21:15:52 GMT
I recently lost a fair amount of weight and I look much better than I did 6 month ago, though still need to lose some more. But I can already notice the difference in the way I am treated. Suddenly a lot more people (guys and girls) are talking to me and wanting to talk to me. Not that I was ostracized or anything before that, but I notice now that people really go out of their way to say hi. So I think looks definitely has a lot to do with confidence and happiness, getting jobs etc. Of course maybe I'm more confident since I'm not so fat now too but I don't think it is just that.
Somebody recently posted a video, what that here or on facebook? - anyway, they did a little experiment by having a white bloke stealing a bicycle in the middle of a park. Most people looked at him a bit dodgy and maybe told him he shouldn't be doing that, but they didn't do anything about it. Then they did the same experiment with a black guy and within minutes people were calling the police, stopping him and so forth. Then they did the experiment with a very good looking woman and the guys actually stopped to help her even when she blatently told them she was stealing the bike!
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Post by ProdigalAlan on Jun 24, 2013 21:23:15 GMT
Well that's the same as it's always been and looks are only one factor. Family name, wealth, political influence, they're all factors as well.
In all honesty, would anyone employ Tom Parker-Bowles if he was called Tommy Earnshaw? I don't think so!
When I was at Oxford I dated a very lovely and wonderful girl who's family name is known globally, you should have seen the doors that normally would be closed which magically sprang open when her name was mentioned.
Life's never been established upon lines of equality. Looks are only a small factor.
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Post by ming on Jun 24, 2013 21:36:30 GMT
Sad, sad world, we live in. I consider myself to be a reasonably (bordering on the point of very) confident person but I'm not without my misgivings either. As a child I wanted to be an air hostess because of all the travelling involved, to which someone (probably a classmate) retorted that I wasn't pretty enough. Now, I'm not even tall enough! I am quite small busted which I don't have a problem with, but towards the beginning of 12th grade 2 classmates (one of whom has hated me all his life for what reason no one knows, and I didn't until then; the other used to be a very close friend I fell out with and have maintained a distance with since - the two of them began dating and picking on me was their favourite pastime) kept on sending me harassing text messages regarding my appearance, and went around writing "[My boyfriend] is gay because he's going out with flat chested Ming!" all over the walls in my classrooms and on all the notices I would put up during my work as a prefect. I must admit that I was very distressed about all this, and even spoke to the head of school about it, but at my request she did nothing but give me a shoulder to cry on. The "popular" adjudicators (read, a 30 pervert that hits on school girls and frequents every debate tournament because he has no job and no life) goes around chatting up the more pretty girls and marking them better while around those who are more average, like myself, he says things like, "I only hit on pretty girls, that doesn't make a pervert, rather an appreciator of beauty!"
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Post by Moose on Jun 24, 2013 21:51:45 GMT
We were discussing this a bit during the Moot .. that it is weird that men rate themselves much higher than women rate themselves. Even seriously gorgeous women seem to think that they are ugly or plain or need bits changing. What is worse is that we, even if we don't want to or actively strive not to, do judge ourselves as people based on how we look. I know that I am fat and plain and even before I was fat and plain I was plain. Whilst I try to make out that it does not bother me, there are days when I feel that I should be apologising for my existence and the fact that I have a vagina when i am neither trim nor good looking. I do not know why that should be tho .. what business is it of anyone else's?
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Post by Moose on Jun 24, 2013 21:53:00 GMT
Sorry I did not see that there was now a second page to this so was replying to t he bottom of the first page LOL
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Post by Moose on Jun 24, 2013 21:54:37 GMT
Ack Ming, I do not think you appreciate at all how beautiful you are And poised also, which is worth a good deal more in my book. But anyway, that's not the point I suppose.
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Post by whollygoats on Jun 25, 2013 1:42:32 GMT
I think we need to keep in mind that when we talk about things like "beauty" that the personal perspective of what that means is going to vary quite a bit. I tend to like to laughingly lean on the "eye of the beerholder", but there is a great deal of truth in the 'beerholder' and the 'beholder' outlooks. There are a lot of humans, and a lot of variation amongst humans.
Yet, we all talk about these things as if we all agree on all details. Is it social conditioning that leads us to share concepts of what is attractive and 'beautiful' in our fellow humans? I wonder. We even erect cults of celebrity to feed the monster of adulation of 'beautiful' fellow humans. Well...enough people do to elicit comment.
Rather like Moose, I'm not handsome. I'm not tall. I'm not dark, either. I've gained weight as I've aged. Not gracefully, either. Yet...I've had a reasonable (in my estimation) life of intimacy and caring from members of the gender which interests me. I even found somebody with whom I was looking forward to sharing our 50th anniversary. At times, I've wondered how that has come about, given my 'looks'. So...as much as I wish I had straight teeth, or was six inches taller, I've decided that it really hasn't mattered and still doesn't matter. I'm not repulsive, I guess.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2013 7:07:06 GMT
Ming, that sounds so horrible. But I do know that if someone wants to pick on a girl, they will find something "ugly" on the most beautiful girl.
I have always felt that I'm too flabby while Frank told me I was very slim and that a lot of women would "kill to look like me". I used to be told I was pretty and when I was a child, I used to believe it, but with all the harrassing in our village later, I changed the way I saw myself.
Funny enough, a lot of the men in the bar I worked in were trying to hit on me (even though most stopped when I told them I wasn't available) and I never saw that as proof of me being beautiful, it rather made me worry I might have dressed "too sexy".
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Post by charliebrown on Jun 25, 2013 7:39:50 GMT
Ming, the bullying you had gone through is truly horrible I also agree with Goats' view on the beauty lies on the eye of the beholder. I enjoy the company of people who are loving and interesting than physically fit or good on the eyes. A lot of 'beauty' in our society is built on money alone, and I am not interested in worshiping money.
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Post by tangent on Jun 25, 2013 7:52:53 GMT
Yes, personality is what makes a person beautiful. It's the only thing that matters deep down.
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Post by Miisa on Jun 25, 2013 8:45:24 GMT
Even the smallest slight matters, especially in the sensitive teenage years. I remember when (maybe 25 years ago) we were discussing which children looked like what parent in our family my mother commented that I didn't look like anyone else but the dog. It was meant as a joke, I am sure (I do look like my mother's side of the family), but it is still one of the few things I remember from that far back, because it hurt, more for the not wanting to admit to looking like me than a comparison to the dog.
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Post by tangent on Jun 25, 2013 9:26:41 GMT
Yes, I can see why that would hurt.
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Post by jayme on Jun 25, 2013 11:21:49 GMT
They always say I look like the milk man.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2013 11:40:23 GMT
They always say I look like the milk man. Does the milk man look good?
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Post by Mari on Jun 25, 2013 15:51:55 GMT
Hehehe, I apparently look like the garbage man. Though I also look exactly like my paternal aunt. If you'd see us together, you'd think we're mother and daughter.
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Post by Moose on Jun 25, 2013 16:22:33 GMT
Goat that's a great point. I am in a relationship with someone I think is gorgeous (and has a great personality to boot) and he does not seem to care that I am fat and plain. In fact, I've had several good looking boyfriends and none of them seemed to care that they were better looking than me. So maybe I should be happy with what I have.
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Post by Moose on Jun 25, 2013 16:26:24 GMT
Apropos of nothing, I was thinking about this thread last night. My youngest sister is slim and gorgeous, natural blonde, well dressed, beautiful face. She gets a huge amount of male attention and has apparently frequently had men give her gifts or send her drinks or whatever .. apparently one time she was in a restaurant and a guy ordered a heart shaped pizza to be sent to her table (which made me laugh, as she's so neurotic about food that there's no way she would have eaten it . And it's only when I've gone places socially with her that I've begun to comprehend just how different life is for beautiful women .. and presumably beautiful men. I am invisible, and even when I was slender and young I was still invisible, cos I still had the plain face. Everywhere I went with Dora tho, people were turning to look at us. Doors were opened, literally and metaphorically. Drinks were bought, meals were offered. Everybody SAW us .. or, of course, they were really only seeing her but it was fun to bask in it for a while. But I don't think that she really realises that life is not like that for all women..
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Post by ming on Jun 25, 2013 16:49:26 GMT
Goat that's a great point. I am in a relationship with someone I think is gorgeous (and has a great personality to boot) and he does not seem to care that I am fat and plain. In fact, I've had several good looking boyfriends and none of them seemed to care that they were better looking than me. So maybe I should be happy with what I have. That's a wonderful way of putting it.
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Post by Mari on Jun 25, 2013 17:09:23 GMT
Apropos of nothing, I was thinking about this thread last night. My youngest sister is slim and gorgeous, natural blonde, well dressed, beautiful face. She gets a huge amount of male attention and has apparently frequently had men give her gifts or send her drinks or whatever .. apparently one time she was in a restaurant and a guy ordered a heart shaped pizza to be sent to her table (which made me laugh, as she's so neurotic about food that there's no way she would have eaten it . And it's only when I've gone places socially with her that I've begun to comprehend just how different life is for beautiful women .. and presumably beautiful men. I am invisible, and even when I was slender and young I was still invisible, cos I still had the plain face. Everywhere I went with Dora tho, people were turning to look at us. Doors were opened, literally and metaphorically. Drinks were bought, meals were offered. Everybody SAW us .. or, of course, they were really only seeing her but it was fun to bask in it for a while. But I don't think that she really realises that life is not like that for all women.. I recognise that. Heads turn when my sister comes in. She knows how to dress and looks great. Plus, she has an energy in her that attracts people. When you're with her, something always happens.
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Post by charliebrown on Jun 25, 2013 18:19:31 GMT
I've never actually know anybody who can attract such favorable response, and I don't believe my friends are less beautiful. But the truth is that I've never experienced anything as dramatic as Jo and Mari describe. So it's also a cultural thing I believe. Or I am slow at picking up certain signals (Kye, right? ) And while I was working in the office of Taiwanese central government, those ladies that were famous for their outward appearance were sometimes shunned by males and females alike as if they could attract troubles. At the end of the day, I believe character decides whether a person is going to be popular or not.
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Post by Alvamiga on Jun 25, 2013 19:59:26 GMT
While Moose may appreciate me (unless she's talking about some boyfriend I don't know about) I do not think I am anything special and have had my fair share of abuse over the years about how I look. I don't know about other blokes, but I don't personally find Dora anything special and certainly wouldn't be falling over myself to get to her (assuming Moose did not exist). I certainly enjoy Moose's company, out of the sisters, by a margin.
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Post by Mari on Jun 25, 2013 20:31:41 GMT
Good thing you're marrying her then I'm not saying that my sister gets better treatment or is thought more highly off than I am because of how she looks. It's a first impression thing. People see her and want to get to know her better. If on better acquaintance it turns out she's nasty no beauty can cover that up, but it's that first step people want to take, whereas I need to take that first step and let myself be known. It's just a matter of where that first effort comes from I suppose. Genie, yes Eastern views on beauty are different from Western ones for as far as I can see, but then, so is the Eastern concept of beauty.
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Post by raspberrybullets on Jun 25, 2013 20:49:33 GMT
The differences in perception are amongst individuals of the same culture too I think. I'm often surprised when a girlfriend of mine will comment on some bloke being really good looking and I take a look and wonder if she's fallen off her strawberry.
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Post by Kye on Jun 25, 2013 21:19:20 GMT
Both my daughters are beautiful --and sweet, intelligent and good. It's nice to see they get positive attention, but I wonder how much they would get if they were only sweet, intelligent and good...
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Post by Moose on Jun 25, 2013 21:36:48 GMT
While Moose may appreciate me (unless she's talking about some boyfriend I don't know about) I do not think I am anything special and have had my fair share of abuse over the years about how I look. I don't know about other blokes, but I don't personally find Dora anything special and certainly wouldn't be falling over myself to get to her (assuming Moose did not exist). I certainly enjoy Moose's company, out of the sisters, by a margin. You are the only man in the world who does not find her special then But she's a nice person also.
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Post by Moose on Jun 25, 2013 21:38:18 GMT
Both my daughters are beautiful --and sweet, intelligent and good. It's nice to see they get positive attention, but I wonder how much they would get if they were only sweet, intelligent and good... Yes . The simple fact is that for a woman, being young and beautiful is the desirable thing.
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Post by Alvamiga on Jun 25, 2013 22:11:00 GMT
Maybe the first in many cases, but not necessarily the most. I have known a few visually appealing women who have gone through relationship after relationship because they keep attracting the wrong men, who ultimately don't like them as a person.
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