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WWIII?
Feb 22, 2022 21:25:59 GMT
via mobile
Post by Mari on Feb 22, 2022 21:25:59 GMT
I doubt it, but I know there are people fearing it. I just re-read the Crimea thread and to me it looks like Russia wants to establish a corridor from Russia to Crimea. The rebels they funded over the years are conveniently placed along the way and now clamouring for independence after all. They've had time to prepare the minds of people for this move through the media and the rebels and they've gaged the international response from the annexation of Crimea 8 years ago. Which was basically some posturing and sanctions that weren't too important but annoying enough to seem that way. So my guess is that Russia will do what it wants while the rest of the world watches, debates, sanctions a bit and then say to their citizens: we tried our best but Russia wouldn't listen however we as civilized countries have decided not to go to war over it. After all, it's in Ukraine, not our own country and our people didn't have to die nor do you have to pay. Problem solved.
Only question I have is why now? What triggered this political chess shitshow?
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WWIII?
Feb 22, 2022 22:19:18 GMT
Post by JoeP on Feb 22, 2022 22:19:18 GMT
There are lots of different opinions, but they mostly centre around Putin going steadily more crazy, or the "siloviki" (political strongmen) who surround him going more insane. Probably both.
It's not just Crimea, it's the whole of Ukraine: if it were to become properly democratic it would be a real threat to Putin's claim that the west is dying and only firm central rule can survive. And it would increase the threat of there being resistance movements in Russia.
The other thing of course is they're all paranoid about Nato - if Ukraine were to join Nato, they would see as pretty much the same thing as invading Moscow itself. The irony is that their current behaviour makes it more likely that Sweden and Finland will apply to join Nato.
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WWIII?
Feb 23, 2022 1:08:17 GMT
Post by Moose on Feb 23, 2022 1:08:17 GMT
I would not care to live in any country that bordered Russia, though I know that Finland has held its own for ages.
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WWIII?
Feb 24, 2022 18:52:42 GMT
via mobile
JoeP likes this
Post by Mari on Feb 24, 2022 18:52:42 GMT
I... didn't expect to wake up to a full-blown war. I'm so ff ing angry with that toddler and his cronies who bloody have access to nukes for just starting a war with an innocent country because he can and it won't hurt him one bit. How can you not care about taking innocent lives, destroying homes, traumatizing people for decades? I'm so angry and frustrated I'm crying.
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WWIII?
Feb 24, 2022 21:54:14 GMT
Post by JoeP on Feb 24, 2022 21:54:14 GMT
Well. Yes. He clearly doesn't have capacity to care about other people.
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WWIII?
Feb 24, 2022 23:09:40 GMT
Post by Moose on Feb 24, 2022 23:09:40 GMT
It seems to have all kicked off. I have no idea what the implications are for the next few weeks or months. I do not know either whether the UK will get involved or whether it is a good or bad thing if we do. What do people think?
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WWIII?
Feb 25, 2022 9:11:13 GMT
Post by JoeP on Feb 25, 2022 9:11:13 GMT
It's looking pretty bad for people in Ukraine. And pretty embarrassing for the average citizen of Russia.
About the only thing the West can do is sanctions, and Boris isn't going hurt his wealthy Russian donors.
Gas prices will definitely rise a lot more, and because of that overall energy prices. That's the only impact on us that I'm sure of.
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WWIII?
Feb 25, 2022 9:11:58 GMT
Post by JoeP on Feb 25, 2022 9:11:58 GMT
Oh, and the news will be absolutely full of it and that will have a negative impact on our mental health.
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WWIII?
Feb 25, 2022 12:17:56 GMT
Post by tangent on Feb 25, 2022 12:17:56 GMT
Ukraine has enough agricultural land to feed 600 million people and we can therefore expect food prices to go up. There are similarities between Ukraine today and Georgia in 2008. Russia engineered a conflict in South Ossetia and eventually took over its territory from Georgia. Much ethnic cleansing took place and 192,000 Georgians fled the region. Some of the blame could be attached to the Georgian government who mismanaged the situation and, IIRC tried to ban the Russian language in South Ossetia and allowed uncontrolled militias to commit atrocities. I notice that Ukraine's language policy, declaring Ukraine to be the only state language, was hugely criticised both inside Ukraine and surrounding countries. A bill was passed in 2014 making Ukrainian the sole state language at all levels. ( Wikipedia) That could have been the trigger for the breakaway regions of Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk. It was a catastrophic mistake IMO. Language is also an issue in Latvia. 25% of Latvia's population are ethnic Russians whilst 34% of the population speak the language at home. In 2012, Latvia held a constitutional referendum on whether to adopt Russian as a second official language. Unsurprisingly, 75% voted against, 25% voted for and the voter turnout was 71%. ( Wikipedia) I believe Putin wants to 'protect' Russian people living in Latvia but I think Latvia must have learnt from Georgia's and Ukraine's mistakes.
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WWIII?
Feb 25, 2022 13:56:23 GMT
Post by Sarah W. on Feb 25, 2022 13:56:23 GMT
That's really interesting, Steve. I hadn't heard that about the language side of things. Thanks for sharing that.
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WWIII?
Feb 25, 2022 14:01:44 GMT
Post by ceptimus on Feb 25, 2022 14:01:44 GMT
Once Russia has successfully installed a puppet government in Ukraine, it may decide to advance into Moldova. Moldova isn't in NATO, and it already has a Russian presence, and Russian sympathizers.
More worryingly, while the world's attention is on Ukraine, it's a good opportunity for other nations to launch attacks they have long wanted to, but didn't want the rest of the world concentrating solely on their aggression. The most obvious ones are China wanting to take control of Taiwan, Israel wanting to launch an attack on Iran, Iran and Saudi Arabia escalating their proxy war in Yemen, Pakistan and India fighting over Kashmir.
It's this sort of, "now would be a good time to fight while the world is looking elsewhere" altitude that really got WW2 going: Italy invaded Ethiopia; Hitler took control of the Sudetenland; Franco started the Spanish Civil War, and Japan attacked China, capturing Beijing, Shanghai and Nanjing.
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WWIII?
Feb 25, 2022 14:18:18 GMT
Post by tangent on Feb 25, 2022 14:18:18 GMT
That's really interesting, Steve. I hadn't heard that about the language side of things. Thanks for sharing that. A lot of old news gets forgotten but I dare say Putin would have looked weak if he had included the language problem in his list of demands. Of course, we've had our own language protests in the UK. In the 1960s and 70s there was a move to see Welsh formally recognised as an official language (which it now is).
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WWIII?
Feb 25, 2022 23:34:16 GMT
Post by Moose on Feb 25, 2022 23:34:16 GMT
Cep - I was reading an analysis earlier about the potential for China to go into Taiwan. And what will the West do? What CAN we do, that might not lead to an all out nuclear exchange? We can't just sit back and watch it happen but who knows how far these countries might go?
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WWIII?
Feb 25, 2022 23:48:04 GMT
Post by ceptimus on Feb 25, 2022 23:48:04 GMT
I can't see other countries doing much to stop China. As with Russia, they'll complain loudly and impose economic sanctions, maybe withdraw ambassadors. But such measures also hurt the countries that impose them, especially if China imposes countermeasures of its own. Such measures are always quietly relaxed and withdrawn anyway, once the news cycle moves on to the next big thing.
Maybe Liz Truss will dress up in costume again, and visit China and Taiwan. She might do something more serious than she did with Russia: perhaps she could hold a Jumble Sale in Taiwan's benefit, or maybe even write a stiff letter to President Xi.
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WWIII?
Feb 25, 2022 23:49:16 GMT
Post by JoeP on Feb 25, 2022 23:49:16 GMT
That to me is a really essential part of this. Xi may not be as insane as Putin, but he's insane enough to use nukes. If Putin comes out of this OK, because the west will not do anything serious due to the threat of nuclear war, Xi will feel a lot more comfortable about "liberating" Taiwan. Just another nail in the coffin of democracy.
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WWIII?
Feb 26, 2022 18:30:42 GMT
Post by whollygoats on Feb 26, 2022 18:30:42 GMT
China has its own internal problems, primarily with corruption in the PLA. Their attempt at control is more economic than military. The 'Belt and Road' policies are building a network of economic connections across Eurasia and into Africa. Their economic hitmen are out there leveraging 'foreign aid' into asset control. But, still...
Putin's timing seems at odds with reality, but perhaps I've lost track of infrastructure improvements in Ukraine. Is raputitsa still a thing? Do the roads still turn to quagmires in spring and fall? If so, I'd think it bad timing to move a bunch of heavy equipment into Ukraine when they'll potentially end up mired in muck. And, I dunno if it is propaganda or not, but Russian regiments have been noted to have surrendered to Ukraine troops and claiming they weren't told they'd have to kill Ukrainians. I've seen footage of massive gatherings in Russian cities where Russians are protesting the invasion.
Sanctions have tightened and focused particularly upon the holdings and transactions of the Russian oligarchy, Putin's complicit co-conspirators. I understand that resupply of Ukraine is being done overland, through Poland and Romania. US troops are being airlifted to eastern Europe (Latvia, I think) to beef up US military presence in the immediate region.
It is an unprovoked act of naked aggression on the part of the Russian Federation against Ukraine. The response is relatively restrained, so far.
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Post by JoeP on Feb 27, 2022 11:55:02 GMT
Yes, I think Putin must have assumed this "operation" could be completed before the roads thaw.
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WWIII?
Feb 27, 2022 20:25:22 GMT
Post by whollygoats on Feb 27, 2022 20:25:22 GMT
Reddit is showing Russian hardware already mired in Ukraine muck. The narrator states that the equipment has been abandoned by their crews. rasputitsaAt the end of day one, western sources were stating that Russia had air superiority over Ukraine. By day two, that had been rescinded.
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WWIII?
Feb 27, 2022 21:32:41 GMT
Kye likes this
Post by JoeP on Feb 27, 2022 21:32:41 GMT
Has global warming undone Putin?
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WWIII?
Feb 28, 2022 1:13:25 GMT
Post by whollygoats on Feb 28, 2022 1:13:25 GMT
Has global warming undone Putin? Nah, I'd say it's just bad planning on Vlad's part.
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Post by JoeP on Feb 28, 2022 11:42:42 GMT
Vlad planning.
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WWIII?
Feb 28, 2022 13:20:47 GMT
via mobile
Post by tangent on Feb 28, 2022 13:20:47 GMT
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WWIII?
Feb 28, 2022 16:40:21 GMT
Post by whollygoats on Feb 28, 2022 16:40:21 GMT
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WWIII?
Feb 28, 2022 16:46:54 GMT
Post by whollygoats on Feb 28, 2022 16:46:54 GMT
Indeed, just as I was seeing evidences of rasputitsa (there's a great bit of video on Reddit showing a boom bucket shovel engaged in digging out ten to twelve large tanks stuck in mud, but it was dated February 10 and indicated as being near Rostov, in Russia, not far from the Ukraine border), it became clear that the Rooskies KNEW of the conditions at this time of year and yet went right ahead. The comments I'm seeing are that it was not weather conditions, but sheer incompetence, which was bogging Roosky forces down.  Here's hoping today's talks are productive for Zelensky and the Ukrainians.
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WWIII?
Mar 4, 2022 3:22:39 GMT
Post by kingedmund on Mar 4, 2022 3:22:39 GMT
At this point. Anything is possible. Including China going beyond Taiwan. Never say never as you will jinx yourself.
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WWIII?
Mar 4, 2022 20:36:12 GMT
Post by tangent on Mar 4, 2022 20:36:12 GMT
That idea dampens the possibility of China arbitrating a ceasefire in Ukraine (as has been mooted).
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WWIII?
Mar 4, 2022 23:32:06 GMT
Post by Moose on Mar 4, 2022 23:32:06 GMT
I was under the impression that China wanted to help bring about peace, which surprised me somewhat.
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WWIII?
Mar 5, 2022 13:48:32 GMT
Post by JoeP on Mar 5, 2022 13:48:32 GMT
I don't trust China. Maybe, if there's going to be peace they want credit for it ... but they definitely want to invade Taiwan and keep hold of Xinjiang and Tibet and Hong Kong and Macau, and to keep Russia as a friend.
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WWIII?
Mar 5, 2022 19:23:49 GMT
Post by whollygoats on Mar 5, 2022 19:23:49 GMT
I don't trust China. Maybe, if there's going to be peace they want credit for it ... but they definitely want to invade Taiwan and keep hold of Xinjiang and Tibet and Hong Kong and Macau, and to keep Russia as a friend. Hmmm...Good not to trust China. Although China continues to push in the South China Sea, it seems more likely to me that the Belt & Road initiative would turn to assist a weakened and increasingly isolated source of fossil fuels that is Russia by incorporating them in the expanding initiative. Y'know, add a whole lot of destination assets to extract oil and gas from the mass of Russian wilderness and ship it directly to the gaping maw of Chinese industry....further polluting the already polluted Chinese air. It is, after all, the nation directly to the north of China. Mongolia might even benefit by being a major pipeline host for the whole deal. Taiwan will wait; there are more important and less troublesome areas of concern. And, don't forget India. They've been pretty chummy with the Russians for decades. They've engaged in technological partnerships with Russia. They've bought lots of Russian technology (as well as French and British goodies). But China is trying to isolate India from the Belt & Road and moving on their trade partners in Afro-Eurasia....India is attempting a counter. Xinjiang is a hotbed. Tibet is still sullen and unhappy. I have family in Hong Kong, so they're in trouble there. I was under the impression that Macau was a gaming center and an outlet for a bunch of gem and precious metals smugglers, so I'm not sure what might have changed. Are all the crazy Portuguese gone?
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Post by whollygoats on Mar 5, 2022 20:13:17 GMT
Ukraine is offering asylum and 5 million rubles (~$40-50K US) to any Russian soldier presently in Ukraine willing to surrender and say the word 'million'.
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