|
Post by Kye on May 12, 2013 21:10:32 GMT
I wasn't particularly religious and now I am. I had a religious experience about 12 years ago which changed the way the rest of my life has worked itself out. Brain fart, I guess.
|
|
|
Post by Mari on May 12, 2013 21:12:51 GMT
That's a very concrete example, but isn't religion, and the problem most non-religious people seem to have with it, about belief? It's not concrete period. You can perhaps prove smaller parts of a religion and try to reduce the whole to its parts, but in the end it's about the simple question 'does it feel absolutely right to say that there is something/someone/whatever'. And whether you believe in God, Allah, Kali or Buddha or whom/what-ever is secondary. Everything else follows after that. Whether you believe what someone else believes is not really the point, is it?
NB: was responding to Moosie
|
|
Yuki
Senior members
Posts: 632
|
Post by Yuki on May 12, 2013 21:21:44 GMT
What do you think about people who believe because they say they have had genuine personal experiences with a divinity? Again, I take that one with a pinch of salt because it seems to me that most people have had experiences that tie in with their own particular culture and there might be a rather large amount of wishful thinking going on there. That said, I know people both online and in real life who say that they have personally experienced God .. though they tend to be extremely vague when asked to explain what they mean. The God helmet can make you experience such a thing.. This is a clip from the scientific series "Into The Wormhole", presented by Morgan Freeman.. a wise choice indeed.. ;D
|
|
deej
Hello
Posts: 32
|
Post by deej on May 12, 2013 22:00:12 GMT
I am an atheist.
Can't say religion appeals to me as a liberal but I respect those who do practice a religion.
|
|
|
Post by Moose on May 12, 2013 22:13:22 GMT
I know lots of liberal religious people
|
|
|
Post by Kye on May 12, 2013 22:13:47 GMT
Like me!
|
|
|
Post by Moose on May 12, 2013 22:38:30 GMT
indeed
|
|
deej
Hello
Posts: 32
|
Post by deej on May 12, 2013 22:41:45 GMT
I know lots of liberal religious people That is very true. The current pope Francis certainly seems very liberal and so does the new Archbishop of Canterbury. And of course you have the Dean of St Albans Jeffrey John, an openly gay bishop with known liberal views. This is just for Christianity.
|
|
Yuki
Senior members
Posts: 632
|
Post by Yuki on May 13, 2013 1:19:04 GMT
There are Muslim liberals, but not as many as there should be, and they're generally rejected by current mainstream Islam..
|
|
|
Post by Miisa on May 13, 2013 6:44:11 GMT
What do you think about people who believe because they say they have had genuine personal experiences with a divinity? Again, I take that one with a pinch of salt because it seems to me that most people have had experiences that tie in with their own particular culture and there might be a rather large amount of wishful thinking going on there. That said, I know people both online and in real life who say that they have personally experienced God .. though they tend to be extremely vague when asked to explain what they mean. The God helmet can make you experience such a thing.. Indeed, and as the video suggests, it is thought that the triggers can and do occur naturally. Temporal lobe epilepsy is well known to create extremely vivid feelings of religious experiences. I have had profound experiences from group social interaction that I might easily have thought of as a religious experience had they been encountered in a religious setting, but they were in pop culture. The feelings people often get at sporting events can also be similar. Meditation or relaxation has caused me to feel a certain flash of oneness with the universe, this happened to me a couple of times in my teens. That is not to say that people's religious experiences can't be real, simply that I personally find them far too easily explained naturally and too often encountered otherwise to be a reason for me to believe.
|
|
|
Post by Kye on May 13, 2013 10:51:13 GMT
I can't understand why people think religious experiences have to be unnatural. Of course they're going to be in the brain and caused by brain chemistry. How else could we experience them?
|
|
|
Post by Miisa on May 13, 2013 11:01:25 GMT
But do you thing the cause behind them is 100% natural or that it has a supernatural element?
|
|
|
Post by Kye on May 13, 2013 12:26:20 GMT
I think the world is infused with Mystery (not lack of knowledge --more an awareness of the subliminal). But I wouldn't call it supernatural. It seems quite natural to me.
|
|
Yuki
Senior members
Posts: 632
|
Post by Yuki on May 13, 2013 13:47:34 GMT
I think the world is infused with Mystery (not lack of knowledge --more an awareness of the subliminal). But I wouldn't call it supernatural. It seems quite natural to me. I do think of that sometimes, especially when I reflect upon the concept of " Qualia".. how can matter have subjective states? But then I remember that the duality hypothesis (body and soul), has no basis in science.. compelling evidence shows that our behavior, feelings, and subjective states are merely the product of the interaction of billions of neurons.. it seems hard to believe, but it's understandable that for biological machines to function well, they have to fool themselves into believing they have "free will", and an identity that is separate from their physical bodies..
|
|
|
Post by Kye on May 13, 2013 15:29:27 GMT
I see science as the Art of Looking Carefully --a very human art, and not at all in opposition to a taste for the subliminal.
|
|
deej
Hello
Posts: 32
|
Post by deej on May 13, 2013 18:44:23 GMT
There are Muslim liberals, but not as many as there should be, and they're generally rejected by current mainstream Islam.. The Arab spring and the actions of educated young liberals, a lot of them muslims with a view to wanting a democratic Western type society in toppling their dictators, suggests differently. For me, most Muslims are as liberal and democratic as anyone else. It's just an alien concept in the west to understand a group of people being loyal to an ideology such as a religion or communism (not that I'm comparing the two, although they are similar in that sense), rather than a nationality. Neither is wrong, it's just that there are extemists for both who tarnish the majority of us.
|
|
deej
Hello
Posts: 32
|
Post by deej on May 13, 2013 18:47:15 GMT
I can't understand why people think religious experiences have to be unnatural. Of course they're going to be in the brain and caused by brain chemistry. How else could we experience them? I think religious experiences of people would be influenced by their social, cultural and political surroundings in their chosen country of birth amongst their families and wider society as a whole. A country that installs more religious values is more likely to influence someone into being religious than the more secular European countries.
|
|
|
Post by JoeP on May 13, 2013 19:15:43 GMT
There's no option for "raised atheist, now atheist" I'm "raised atheist but it's rarely a good idea to make a big deal out of it and you probably ought to learn some bible stories". The latter part being school's take on it.
|
|
|
Post by Kye on May 13, 2013 19:33:00 GMT
I can't understand why people think religious experiences have to be unnatural. Of course they're going to be in the brain and caused by brain chemistry. How else could we experience them? I think religious experiences of people would be influenced by their social, cultural and political surroundings in their chosen country of birth amongst their families and wider society as a whole. A country that installs more religious values is more likely to influence someone into being religious than the more secular European countries. Yes, they can also be influenced by these natural processes, as is atheism.
|
|
|
Post by Moose on May 13, 2013 19:56:34 GMT
Yes, atheism also is. I am more interested in people who were atheists and then convert (and to an extent the other way around too). It must be strange to go from the mindset of really believing that there is nothing to actually believing in a deity and an afterlife
|
|
bill
Senior members
Posts: 891
|
Post by bill on May 13, 2013 20:02:14 GMT
That's what the label "agnostic atheist" is for.. but in the end it depends on how you define "agnostic" and "atheist".. I do not see how you can be an agnostic atheist. An atheist is someone who definitely does not believe in God. An agnostic is someone who thinks there is probably no god but is not sure. I do not see how you can be both.
|
|
|
Post by Moose on May 13, 2013 20:12:30 GMT
I define myself as agnostic atheist. To me - and only to me, I dunno what the official designation is - this means that I do not personally think that htere is a God but I acknowledge that there might be.
|
|
|
Post by Miisa on May 13, 2013 20:14:42 GMT
Agnosticism answers the question "do you know there is or isn't gods?" while theism/atheism answers the question "do you believe in god(s)?" Therefore most of us are agnostic theists or agnostic atheists, very few feel they know for sure.
|
|
|
Post by Moose on May 13, 2013 20:18:56 GMT
I suspect many people claim that they know for sure - on both sides - when deep down they really do not feel as sure as they make out
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 14, 2013 7:06:55 GMT
I was raised as a fundamentalist Christian and am a liberal Christian now. Some people would say I'm not one at all.
|
|
|
Post by tangent on May 14, 2013 10:33:20 GMT
Neither is wrong, it's just that there are extemists for both who tarnish the majority of us. Just as there are extremist Christians who tarnish Christianity. I'm thinking of creationism, imprecatory prayer (praying for Obama's death), Old Testament laws, gay bashing and God's vengeance through hurricanes and natural disasters.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 14, 2013 11:17:18 GMT
People pray for Obama's death?
|
|
|
Post by tangent on May 14, 2013 11:37:27 GMT
People pray for Obama's death? From Wikipedia, "On The Alan Colmes Show on June 2, 2009, [Wiley] Drake stated that he is engaging in imprecatory prayer, praying for God to kill President Barack Obama..." In response, a Southern Baptist representative says, "Mr. Drake does not represent Southern Baptist actions, resolutions, or positions in his interpretation and application of imprecatory prayers." Nevertheless, the idea abounds in certain spheres. But that's OK because a Texas court has declared that it's legal, provided no one is actually hurt, see www.au.org/tags/imprecatory-prayer.
|
|
|
Post by raspberrybullets on May 14, 2013 11:43:02 GMT
So if Obama dies, will they get charged for praying for his death?
|
|
|
Post by tangent on May 14, 2013 11:45:39 GMT
I wouldn't like to say.
|
|