Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2013 14:14:50 GMT
Wow, I would have thought that to be a really bad thing to do.
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Post by Alvamiga on May 14, 2013 18:31:04 GMT
Would God get charged for doing it?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2013 18:54:45 GMT
They can try.
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Post by Moose on May 14, 2013 19:58:25 GMT
You have said before that Creationists are extremists. In the US, they really are not you know.
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Post by tangent on May 14, 2013 22:34:12 GMT
Yes, OK, they were in 1960 when creationism almost died out.
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Post by Moose on May 14, 2013 22:58:27 GMT
it is thriving now *winks at Sven*
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Post by tangent on May 14, 2013 23:15:23 GMT
You have to remember I'm looking at this from a British point of view.
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Post by Moose on May 14, 2013 23:22:37 GMT
Well yes but I said 'in the US'. And there are a great many more Christians, percentage wise, in the US than there are here.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2013 6:01:35 GMT
I can't understand why some Christians think you can't be a Christian without being a creationist.
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Post by tangent on May 15, 2013 6:09:54 GMT
Yes, but there are many more Christians in the rest of the world. Only 5% of the world's Christians believe in creationism. When I said that creationism was extremist, I was thinking of it from the British point of view.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2013 6:31:54 GMT
Yes, but there are many more Christians in the rest of the world. Only 5% of the world's Christians believe in creationism. When I said that creationism was extremist, I was thinking of it from the British point of view. I guess I spent too much time living in the extremist world. I still tend to feel slightly guilty sometimes because I'm not a creationist anymore. To me that was normal while today, I don't think it is normal at all to just completely refuse scientific resuls.
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Post by raspberrybullets on May 15, 2013 8:01:25 GMT
I would class creationists as extremist. Anybody that denies all reason, logic and observation of the world in preference for their belieft that has no justification is extremist.
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bill
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Post by bill on May 15, 2013 16:47:45 GMT
These people are not Christians regardless of what they may think.
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Post by tangent on May 15, 2013 17:16:04 GMT
Yes, they are Christians even if their beliefs are unpalatable. According to the World Council of Churches which represents half the world's Christians, everyone is a Christian if they believe that (a) God created the universe, (b) his son, Jesus, died on the cross for our salvation, and (c) the Holy Spirit lives in the world today.
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Post by Moose on May 15, 2013 18:35:23 GMT
Why should they not be Christians? That's an extremely sweeping statement!
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bill
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Post by bill on May 15, 2013 19:30:43 GMT
Why should they not be Christians? That's an extremely sweeping statement! I suppose we had moved on a bit but I meant this:- "I'm thinking of creationism, imprecatory prayer (praying for Obama's death), Old Testament laws, gay bashing and God's vengeance through hurricanes and natural disasters." I stand by my statement.
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Post by Moose on May 15, 2013 20:44:15 GMT
I don't think that calling someone who believes in a young Earth not a Christian is cool really . I think that creationism is deeply misguided but I am quite sure that most Creationists consider themselves Christians! As to gay bashing - I don't like it either but one could say St Paul was guilty of it.
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Post by tangent on May 15, 2013 21:17:19 GMT
Why should they not be Christians? That's an extremely sweeping statement! I suppose we had moved on a bit but I meant this:- "I'm thinking of creationism, imprecatory prayer (praying for Obama's death), Old Testament laws, gay bashing and God's vengeance through hurricanes and natural disasters." I stand by my statement. Let's put it this way. Last Sunday evening I was privileged to assist the new vicar with administering communion. If Fred Phelps had turned up - which he couldn't because he is not allowed entry into Britain - I would not have hesitated to administer communion to him, and would have done so gladly even though I detest his actions. (And I would have secretly prayed for a change in his heart.) But what would you have done, Bill? Fred Phelps is an extremist but he is a Christian. Would you have refused him communion? (Or if you prefer, what would you hope your priest would do?)
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Post by ming on May 15, 2013 21:47:18 GMT
I was born a Muslim and that's it. Perhaps in the future I might become more devout (well, I hope to) but right now, I'm only a Muslim because I was born into a Muslim family.
I consider myself more academic than spiritual. I enjoy studying religions, I find the stories fascinating, I find lessons in all religions teach moral good, I believe in an afterlife - but the spiritual connection to Allah or God, it's not strong enough for me.
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deej
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Post by deej on May 17, 2013 22:59:09 GMT
Obama kills enough people with drones in his countries endless bid for militarily and world supremacy in the so-called name of democracy.
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Post by Moose on May 17, 2013 23:00:03 GMT
Obama does? Source?
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deej
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Post by deej on May 17, 2013 23:03:21 GMT
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Post by Moose on May 17, 2013 23:18:01 GMT
God, I'd differentiate between Obama and his predecessor.
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deej
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Post by deej on May 17, 2013 23:20:55 GMT
God, I'd differentiate between Obama and his predecessor. Obama is much better. I agree.
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Post by Alvamiga on May 18, 2013 7:19:41 GMT
I think Obama seems a more sensible person, but he does often also seem to give off the horrible stink of the PR engine that seems mandatory these days.
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bill
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Post by bill on May 18, 2013 17:34:32 GMT
Obama kills enough people with drones in his countries endless bid for militarily and world supremacy in the so-called name of democracy. What the hell does that mean???
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Yuki
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Post by Yuki on May 18, 2013 17:46:33 GMT
There are Muslim liberals, but not as many as there should be, and they're generally rejected by current mainstream Islam.. The Arab spring and the actions of educated young liberals, a lot of them muslims with a view to wanting a democratic Western type society in toppling their dictators, suggests differently. You're making three assumptions here: - That the revolutionaries represent a single homogenous group.
There were the initiators of the revolution, and there were those who accepted the call and went to the streets. The initiators were people who already had an inclination towards revolutionary and rebellious ideas, most likely independent Marxists, Anarchists, and liberals... from my experience with the revolutionary movement in Morocco (which failed miserably in the end), I know for a fact that most of them are non believers.. I know several active members in the movement personally, and my girlfriend herself was responsible for communication and coordination between cities.. considering the structural similarity between North African and Middle Eastern societies, my guess is that it was the case in all countries where revolutions started.
Those who protested in the streets were not all "liberal Muslims", simply people who opposed the system for various reasons, or who simply demanded more rights.
- That the objective was the same, which is "Western-style democracy".
Even among those who founded the revolutionary movements, there were disagreements concerning the objectives. Some wanted a mere reform, others to establish democracy, while other ones wanted a communist system. And later when Islamists joined the movement as well, there was talk of the establishment of a Caliphate.. of course this debate mostly occurred behind the scenes.. in protests and such, people mostly demanded "freedom", "democratic reforms" or a "democratic system"..
- That Muslims in general understand the word "democracy" the same way as you do..
Just because they use the word "democracy" doesn't mean they understand what it means in terms of laws and practices as it is applied in the West. In fact, from my experience here, most people understand "democracy" to mean "rule of the majority".. they forget that bit where you're supposed to protect the rights of minorities first..
So, you want to eat in public during the day in Ramadan? No you can't do that.. we the majority have decided that doing that is offensive to us.. if you do it you go to jail.. and basically the same argument is used to thwart any attempt to discuss oppressive laws, that are directly derived from Islamic Sharia..
Mere wishful thinking as Dr. Gerd Puin (a German researcher who spent decades studying Islam and the Koran) said in an interview about the statement of the German president "Islam belongs to Germany".. ( link (German)) If Muslims were "liberal and democratic" in general, the Islamic world wouldn't be suffering from many of its current problems, especially as far as human rights and individual liberties are concerned. If you want to check for yourself, see this page. Use google translate if you need.. The admin of that page titled "Eye on Democracy" asked a simple question: do you think that a Muslim who leaves Islam in an Arab country should be considered a criminal?The question had 2855 comments till the moment I'm writing this. Most of the answers were "yes", and a lot of them even added that an apostate must be killed. Just to have a more accurate result, I took 100 responses randomly (the 10 first ones every time I click on "view previous comments"), though I skipped comments by the same people, and the ones that were unrelated to the question: [Yes]= 60, among which 16 specified that an apostate must be killed. Some of those responded to the [No] group stating that the verse "there's no compulsion in religion" only refers to those who did not convert to Islam yet. You're not supposed to force people to convert, but if they do and then revert you have to apply the prophet's commandment "Whoever changes his religion, slay him." --Al Bukhari, 4:52:260 [No]= 37, among which 2 said they were apostates themselves. Some of them cited the Koranic verse saying: "there's no compulsion in religion". [Unsure]= 2, these people were unsure which position was true, citing contradictory verses of the Koran and hadiths. [Conditional]= 1, this person said that an apostate born into Islam should not be killed because they never had a choice to join the religion in the first place. A person who converted to Islam, then left the religion however must be killed. 60% in favor of a barbaric law is pretty discouraging frankly, but my own assessment is that the Islamic world is heading slowly towards more openness.. we will see in the next few decades..
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Yuki
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Post by Yuki on May 18, 2013 19:48:36 GMT
That's what the label "agnostic atheist" is for.. but in the end it depends on how you define "agnostic" and "atheist".. I do not see how you can be an agnostic atheist. An atheist is someone who definitely does not believe in God. An agnostic is someone who thinks there is probably no god but is not sure. I do not see how you can be both. This could explain..
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Post by jayme on May 18, 2013 23:00:44 GMT
There were the initiators of the revolution, and there were those who accepted the call and went to the streets. The initiators were people who already had an inclination towards revolutionary and rebellious ideas, most likely independent Marxists, Anarchists, and liberals... from my experience with the revolutionary movement in Morocco (which failed miserably in the end), I know for a fact that most of them are non believers.. I know several active members in the movement personally, and my girlfriend herself was responsible for communication and coordination between cities.. considering the structural similarity between North African and Middle Eastern societies, my guess is that it was the case in all countries where revolutions started. e/m Yuki has a girlfriend! ;D
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Post by Moose on May 18, 2013 23:10:30 GMT
he does?
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